Does a unit with a flier as a dedicated transport have to start in reserve?

[kaptin_blacksquigg]

As the subject says: Does a unit with a flier as a dedicated transport have to start in reserve?

I can see any reason it does, which has interesting consequences for those mass flier Nercon armies that are appearing. Say you have an overlord, 4 units of Necrons in Night Scyths and 3 Doom Scyths. you can put up to 50% of you units into reserve, ignoring those that have to start in reserve. So ignoring the vehicles, you still have to deploy 3 units, despite their transports being in reserve.

Something similar could be argued with fully drop pod armies.

Seems a bit odd.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

You don't have to start in your dedicated transport. In that case, you'll count towards the half-in-reserve rule (one way or the other).

If you do start in a dedicated transport that cannot start the game on the table, you don't count towards the half-in-reserve rule.

[Mandragola]

If you do start in a dedicated transport that cannot start the game on the table, you don't count towards the half-in-reserve rule.

I think you do. You had a choice about whether you went in that transport, so you didn't have to start in reserve, so you do count.

I'm pretty sure that all-reserve armies are now impossible. You can't have an army where everyone deep strikes, say with blood angels. I don't see why coming from reserve in a drop pod or flyer would get you around this.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Well it can get you around this in drop pods, guess because it is pretty narative. But you can. You can't have an entire army in flyers though. You lose.

[IJW]

Models embarked on transports that have to start in reserve are ignored when counting how many units can start in reserve.

Otherwise all-Drop Pod armies would have to start with half the units sitting on the table waiting for their transports to arrive...

[TheGreatDalmuti]

And then wonder what to do with said transport that just arrived and is going nowhere...

[Mandragola]

If you could provide page numbers and quotes for those rules, that would be great.

I can't see where it says that units in dedicated transports don't count just because the transport itself has to come from reserve. The transport doesn't count but the unit does. It states that a unit and its dedicated transport counts as a single unit: one. Not zero.

I am saying that you can't do an all-drop pod army under these rules. Neither is an all-scythe necron army. Why should it be, when all terminator teleport or jump pack deep strike, or simply walking on isn't allowed?

[IJW]

I can't give you a page number for that because I don't have access to the rulebook at the moment, but it's from the Deep Strike rules in the updated digital SM codex and the identical wording in the Deep Strike rules in the digital Necron codex. If you don't want to believe me you don't want to believe me.

The difference is the presence of transports that have to start in reserve.

EDIT - by the way, going by the wording in the DS rules, it's not specific to dedicated transports either, any unit embarked on a transport that has to start in reserves isn't counted.

[Mandragola]

Thanks. I found where it says that units embarked on transports that have to deep strike are not counted. It's in the deep strike rules, not the reserves rules where I was looking (and where it should be, in my opinion!). So Drop pod armies are able to all deep strike. Oddly, there is no corresponding rule for flyers, suggesting either that you can't do an all-flyer army, or that they forgot to put that rule in.

I suppose it makes sense for a drop pod army to be allowed, both because it fits the fluff and because half of them arrive on turn one, so you don't auto-lose for having nothing on the board. The same logic would not apply to flyers.

[IJW]

Good point, it's just Deep Strike so the answer to the original thread question re Flyers would be 'no'.

[Cerebus]

Night scythes are a dedicated transport with deep strike. Doom Scythes are a heavy support choice with deep strike. Both can start in reserve, and since Night Scythes are dedicated transports, their contents can start in reserve without counting against the reserve limit.

[IJW]

OK, so the answer to the OP is now 'yes, but only because your vehicles have Deep Strike and have to start in reserve due to being Flyers'.

[Mandragola]

Night scythes are a dedicated transport with deep strike. Doom Scythes are a heavy support choice with deep strike. Both can start in reserve, and since Night Scythes are dedicated transports, their contents can start in reserve without counting against the reserve limit.

Not quite right. Night scythes can deep strike. The exclusion from the reserve count only applies to units that must deep strike, and their contents, not units with the option to deep strike or units that must be in reserve. Night scythes must be in reserve, but can choose whether to deep strike, so any units they are carrying do count towards the 50% count.

Check out the deep strike rule on page 36.

[IJW]

So we're now back to 'no, it only really works for Drop Pods'.

Or do Monoliths still have to enter via Deep Strike?

[Mandragola]

I think it's only drop pods, yes.

The monolith isn't a transport, so I don't think it makes any difference whether it has to deep strike or not! Off the top of my head I think it has to deep strike if it goes in reserve, but it doesn't have to go in reserve so it would count towards the reserve count, as would any units planning on appearing through its portal.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Hmm, I got the deep-strike rules mixed up with the general rules. Although, honestly, I agree with Mandragola that it should be in the general rules, where you'd expect to look for it.

[Gingerwerewolf]

Isnt the point that by putting all your Necrons in Fliers and thus in reserve, that by the end of game turn one you will have no models on the board and thus loose the game? The only thing that auto arrives in the first turn are Daemons and Drop Pods.

Thus Drop Pods yes, but all flier reserve forces no.

Simple?

[kaptin_blacksquigg]

It's true, if you could put everything in reserve for an all flier list, you would just lose at the end of turn 1, but in that case the question because can you just deploy your HQ and hide him behind a building or do you have to deploy a full 50% of your non-flying units (even if they have flying transports)?

We seem to be moving towards a consensus that no you can't just deploy the lord, in that situation you'd have to deploy 50% of your non-fliers.

good catch on the drop pod rule, at least that is clear.

[Blinder]

Assuming you're talking dedicated transports, wouldn't you *have* to start the unit in reserve? I was fairly certain dedicated transports and the unit they're assigned to still had to deploy at the same time, so if the transport *cannot* be deployed before the game, neither can the unit (and then neither counts against the limit on account of the "must doesn't count" clause)?

Units embarked on non-dedicated transports I would assume are included in the 50% stuff, as they can legally deploy without their ride.

[Magicafiend]

Wouldn't an all drop pod army lose if your opponent went first as you would have nothing on the board at the end of his turn? Unless the auto lose specifies game turn player turn is usually the default.