Ethereals and Magic Standards

[knightime98]

Edit: I'm playing Empire for this example.
End Edit.

If a unit possesses a magic standard of any type, does that unit now have "magical attacks" ?

The point here is that even the title, "Magic Weapon" does not specifically state that the attacks are magical...

Ironic isn't it...

However, the wording on Ethereal units states that it can not be harmed except by a "Magic Weapon" or "magical attacks".
Which kind of leaves banners hanging in the breeze on this one...

If this is the case, there are only 3 ways to counter ethereal units.
1. Magic Weapons on characters
2. Spells - Magic Missiles, direct damage.. or the #2 spells from lore of fire and metal which grant "magical attacks" to the unit.
3. Combat resolution..

Good luck with #3 above vs the hex wraiths 10 strong with S5 attacks. Who will be reanimated or brought back next magic phase...

How are you guys fending off 2 units of 10 hexwraiths? They single handedly can wreck any army except Skaven (Warp fire/stone, everything is magical).

Just really would like to think what is in GW's head by making a unit so invincible.

I threw 5 dice (all I had) at Bannishment (3d6 s4 hits against undead) first turn and it got scrolled. 2nd turn, I threw 6 dice and he threw all of his and dispelled it.. The hexwraiths single handedly crushed my entire flank. Nothing that I could do....

Just looking for answers and or solid solutions... Aside from giving every character a magic weapon which is redunkulous. Even so, I will retort that, even if you do a a few wounds or even 3 if you are a lord level character that they will simply be healed back next VC magic phase.

I'm at a loss...

[Dark_Warrior]

Magic Standards do not grant magic attacks unless it is stated in the rules. I think there are a couple banners that do that (cant remember which ones right now). But yes, unless the banner says specificaly "grants magical attacks" or similar, the banners do not confer magical attacks.

Yes, they ways you listed are the only ways to deal with them. There are other ways too though, like I said, I believe there is one or two standards that grant magical attacks so you also have those, deamon attacks are magical (I think, not 100%), most skaven shooting has magical attacks, chaos knights are magical (unless you buy lances), and some other units than have innate magic weapons.

Two units is tough, but personally, I play dark elves so I normally have the unkillable lord to tie them up and he has a magic weapon. He takes care of one unit and then I hold up the second unit with trash units, redirected them, used lots of magic misslles or a second magic weapon. I normally have two magic weapons floating around in my tournament lists anyways (Flying lord and a magic weapon on a lvl 2 just incase). So in general, I'd have to say that I feel that the best way is a lone character or two and/or a cheap character in a trash unit devoted to the cause of killing ethereal units. You can devote the points soley to kill that unit, and not feel bad (10 hex wraiths are expensive, 35 points a model?).

For empire I'd say light wizard and a fire wizard, plus maybe a unit of knights with a grandmaster with magic weapon in it and war banner? that should survive str 5 hits fairly well and the character will hit hard. Not too familiar with new Empire but that would be my suggestion. Also pull out his scroll first turn. The rest of the game you then don't have to worry about it anymore, and late game is when you need those crucial spells most anyways

[Moss]

The point here is that even the title, "Magic Weapon" does not specifically state that the attacks are magical...

Ironic isn't it...

...

However, the wording on Ethereal units states that it can not be harmed except by a "Magic Weapon" or "magical attacks".
Which kind of leaves banners hanging in the breeze on this one...

I guess the attacks from a magic weapon aren't magical (never noticed that before), but it doesn't really matter because like you say, the rules say that ethereals can be harmed by magic weapons regardless.

If a unit possesses a magic standard of any type, does that unit now have "magical attacks" ?

Nope. Unless the banner specifically says so (I could have sworn such a banner actually exists, but I could be wrong).

[NitrosOkay]

You'll be glad to know there's a FAQ for this.

Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered to
be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically noted
as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items are
also considered to be magical attacks, unless their description
specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls on the
Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.

So unless your standard is actually attacking anything (Tzeentch standards used to do this?), having a magic standard does not give you magical attacks.

Magic weapons are physically attacking and so are magical attacks.

[Moss]

I also suggest the Ruby Ring of Ruin. It's always nice to have an extra magic missile, and you can get away with throwing one or two dice at it since it's power level 3. It's only d6 S4 hits, but hexwraiths are T3 and have no saves, so you have a good shot at killing a few each turn.

[knightime98]

"Yes, they ways you listed are the only ways to deal with them. There are other ways too though, like I said, I believe there is one or two standards that grant magical attacks so you also have those, deamon attacks are magical (I think, not 100%), most skaven shooting has magical attacks, chaos knights are magical (unless you buy lances), and some other units than have innate magic weapons."

I read all the generic banners listed in the main rule book, none of them state that magical attacks are granted to their unit.
I don't play Daemons... I do have a Skaven army but seldomly play it. I do not play Chaos Warriors either.

"Two units is tough, but personally, I play dark elves so I normally have the unkillable lord to tie them up and he has a magic weapon. He takes care of one unit and then I hold up the second unit with trash units, redirected them, used lots of magic misslles or a second magic weapon. I normally have two magic weapons floating around in my tournament lists anyways (Flying lord and a magic weapon on a lvl 2 just incase). So in general, I'd have to say that I feel that the best way is a lone character or two and/or a cheap character in a trash unit devoted to the cause of killing ethereal units. You can devote the points soley to kill that unit, and not feel bad (10 hex wraiths are expensive, 35 points a model?)"

In our area the so called unkillable lord is an illegal build. The pendant is a banned item. Their are a host of banned items from multiple armies. Hex Wraiths are still just in the 30's point. They are less than the 35 you mentioned.

"For empire I'd say light wizard and a fire wizard, plus maybe a unit of knights with a grandmaster with magic weapon in it and war banner? that should survive str 5 hits fairly well and the character will hit hard. Not too familiar with new Empire but that would be my suggestion. Also pull out his scroll first turn. The rest of the game you then don't have to worry about it anymore, and late game is when you need those crucial spells most anyways "

They also don't allow any armor saves so, a unit of knights is definitely not the unit to bring against them. You're just giving the VC army points. The worst thing you can do is charge demi-gryph knights at them.. 3W, T3, no armor save(negated by HW special rules) vs. s5 Hexwraiths... Hit on 4's, wound on 2's.. no attacks back. This is what I'm talking about.. The DG monsters are T4 however, as with MC you always use the riders T.

Frustrating is an understatement.

[Lance Tankmen]

etheral arent that big of a threat but yes they are a pain in the **** for sure, still he can only bring 1 back per signature spell.

[knightime98]

etheral arent that big of a threat but yes they are a pain in the **** for sure, still he can only bring 1 back per signature spell.

Well, allow me to retort !

10 Hex Wraiths are a big threat, they can literally run through your troops (the more expensive the better). After they run through your troops they then will run through your entire artillery line and then rear charge you. They allow no armor saves and are S5.

Granted, I don't bring much artillery now that it has been nerfed from here to hog heaven but none the less... 2 pieces of artillery are now 240 points... That by itself almost makes up for that unit...

I'm looking for solutions and the Dark Elf player has pointed us in the right direction...
I'd like to know why there are no magic banners that grant magical attacks?

It might just be me, but I think the ethereals are bit over the top. Well let me redress that, the hex wraiths are over the top. The others are limited to 5 models while the Hex Wraiths can be taken up to 10.

Like I said, any suggestions as been pointed with 2 wizards (I usually take 1 wiz and a priest/arch lector or 2, Capt/BSB)

Edit: Soul Fire from a priest/Arch Lector does a S5 hit for any models in base to base contact.. If on foot only 2 cav models, if on the newly nerfed poop mobile 4 cav models maybe.. Note that the Soul Fire is only Power Level 3 with no wizard level(s) added. So easily dispelled and most likely the case...
End Edit.

[hazmiter]

Hex wraiths are lethal, I spent half a game trying to kill the Damn things.
Best ways to kill, are 1, sword of +3 attacks, it helps.....
Also bear in mind they are reliant on you getting no saves.... Unit save buff ie cauldron bloodshield of khaine, shield of saphery.
High elves get a cheap one, little stone of magical attacks for cheap as chips, affects entire unit.
Lore of fire, lore of light, lore of dark magic, anything with a cheap to cast magic missile.
Augment buffs.
The list is limited though.
Another way is to tie up with a chaff bus, ie gobbos, and flank charge.

[Ximinipot]

I've never had an issue with Hex Wraiths or Ethereal units in general. They normally just go poof from my magic or combat.

[NitrosOkay]

2d6 strength 4 hits, your standard magic missile, will kill 4.67 Hex Wraiths on average. That's 140 points worth and if you roll slightly above average you probably wipe out the whole unit.

Hex Wraiths are extremely vulnerable.

[knightime98]

2d6 strength 4 hits, your standard magic missile, will kill 4.67 Hex Wraiths on average. That's 140 points worth and if you roll slightly above average you probably wipe out the whole unit.

Hex Wraiths are extremely vulnerable.

I threw 5 dice (all I had) at Bannishment (3d6 s4 hits against undead) first turn and it got scrolled. 2nd turn, I threw 6 dice and he threw all of his and dispelled it.. The hexwraiths single handedly crushed my entire flank. Nothing that I could do....

Just looking for answers and or solid solutions... Aside from giving every character a magic weapon which is redunkulous. Even so, I will retort that, even if you do a a few wounds or even 3 if you are a lord level character that they will simply be healed back next VC magic phase.

I'm at a loss...

Yes, That ! As, I stated - the VC player did everything to stop ANY magic missile from going through just for that reason. I got through smaller prayers from the Warrior Priest with a few extra dice on the 2nd turn but you can only throw 6 dice per cast....

[hazmiter]

6 per cast is the norm, power stones may help there.

[NitrosOkay]

You're telling me you don't have any other threatening magic spells?

You don't throw 6-dice at things like that. You put a few dice into it and don't give him any obvious dispel scroll targets, then cast something else threatening like speed of light, time warp or net, or hell shem's burning gaze. If you don't kill the hexwraiths then you wreck something else.

[hazmiter]

3 dice from a lv4 fire wizard at the 10+ fire ball is sufficient. If that gets scrolled or dispelled, 2 or 3 dice a flame cage.

[knightime98]

What I have failed to point out here is that our game was only 1500 points...

Now you have caught me... He only had 1 unit of 10 hex wraiths but if you doubled it for a 3k game he could have 2 units of 10 hex wraiths.. (easily)

Note that no rares for this game were allowed.
Empire 1500 pt list (mind you that I did know it was VC army but not what he would bring)

Warrior Priest General
Great Weapon, Armor of Meteoric Iron

Wizard - Level 2 (Light)
Bannishment and Brianna's Time Warp (both were good options to keep at the time), I didn't want 2 magic missiles (I regret that now).

Captain - BSB, (Don't remember how I equipped him)
Edit: I think Talisman of Protection and enchanted shield, full plate or I might have it switched around with the WP.. This may have been it.
End Edit.

Core
39 halberds w/cmd
40 halberds w/cmd
39 spears w/cmd

Special
21 flagellants w/prophet

His list roughly
Vampire Lord (lvl 1), Ward Save, Book uses d3 power dice auto cast at base level of some random spell list
Vampire (lvl 1), Fear incarnate
Necro lvl 1, dispell scroll

Core
20 x zombies w/ std
20 x zombies w/ std
20 x zombies w/std
30 x skellies w/cmd, shields, spears.

Special
10 x Hex wraiths w/cmd (or whatever cmd they can take)
3 x Varghiest

So, in the end - I only had the banishment only to cast.

I steered away from any artillery as they would have given up free victory points to ethereals, dire wolves, bats, and so on...
Only had a mortar or cannon to choose from... so... Cannon at 1500 pts was dicey at best.. it wasn't needed.

[hamsterwheel]

Hexwraiths don't bounce through units so you can usually prevent them from running through your guys by good positioning. Also remember that they can only march if they're within a certain distance from the general as they don't have the vampire rule. If you're able to get a rear or flank charge with a large block, static combat rez will probably kill them.

[Moss]

I really don't see the problem here. That unit is 300pts. In a 1500pt game, that's 20% of his army. You can probably magic missile their numbers down before they reach you (the argument that he will just dispel them doesn't really work... surely this guy doesn't have some kind of gift that allows him to dispel EVERYTHING you throw at him). Like I said earlier, the Ruby Ring is a great way to get another MM on your side. And if he manages to reach your lines unscathed, then turn one of your 40-man core units to face them. Even if you can't really BEAT him with static res due to him wounding you, you can at least tie them down.

[Blkc57]

Hexwraiths have got to be the most overrated threat in all of Warhammer. When the VC book first came out all I could remember was people spouting doom and gloom where I play about how hexwraiths were going to rule the meta-game. There are a ton of VC players in my area, they all play competitively in tournaments, and I can honestly tell you after all the hyperbole, they run at most usually a single unit of 5 or sometimes even none at all. The truth is that there are too many things that can just evaporate those points spent on Hexwraiths: All Deamons, Skaven, Dwarves with a rune gunline, Wood Elves, Magic heavy Dark Elves and High Elves. Don't get me wrong I've seen hexwraiths used well...usually though they are more suited to hunting enemy chaff/fast cav/re-directors or harassing war machines. You want some useful ethereal units? try Spirit Hosts, we have a champion VC players that is masterful with those things using them to re-direct charges or hold up flanks. The other amazing thing about the guy is that he constantly wins tournaments with lists that no one would think would be good for a VC player, like Black Knight theme'd lists with no gravegaurd unit.

You want some advice for Empire on how to deal with Hexwraiths? Take a super cheap character put him on a horse, give him Dragonbane gem or even the Dragonhelm and a cheap magic weapon and go hunting the hexwriaths. A captain with Dragonhelm, full plate, shield, horse and something stupid like Biting Blade is like 80-90 points, he has a 1+ armor save versus the horses and a 2+ Ward save versus the riders when fighting the hex wraiths. He can just charge them and hold them up the entire game since it would be so hard for them to wound him and he could easily get one or two kills around. Plus their ride through would be wasted on him with his 2+ ward save. You would even have enough points for a Dawnstone to give him a 1+ re-rollable armor save to go after those Varghiest. So with 120 points or so you can deal with almost 1000 points of his army. Leaving the bulk of your force to take on a group of MSU Zombies, and honestly thats like shooting fish in a barrel, poor poor zombie core.

[hazmiter]

I'll agree there, bane gem, and helm are good options, and a cheap magic weapon is always worthwhile, shrieking blade is good for passing fear tests.