Ethereals and Magic Standards

[knightime98]

Well at least now, I have an idea of how to face the ethereals..

Ruby Ring was something that I was looking at shortly after I posted... This is a more direct solution out of the box.

Getting a Captain with 2+ WS that is something that I don't think that I would have ever come up with on my own.
2 drawbacks here - you still need to overcome a fear test each combat AND there is always the chance that you can roll a couple of ones eventually.
He can't heal himself.. Although the idea is sound... Not so sure it would be completely practical. You'd have to get that exact matchup...
The shrieking blade may be the solution here.

I was looking at the Poop Mobile for the built in Banishment spell at Bound lvl 4. Cagey at best.. Gives more options though, hatred within 6" and Prayers are extended the same. Gets 2 units on either side of it....

All ideas.. I'm still trying to "Find" my way with the newest disaster of 8th Edition Empire.
Note - Empire Army book has 0 Arcane items. Pathetic...

Anyhow... I'll attempt to trudge on with the new fangled mess of GW.

Thanks one and all for your support, ideas, and possible solutions..

[hazmiter]

Possible solution, get a ward save, ie helm....
Cheap blade, biting blade. The hex wraith has 6+ for mounted as.
Maybe run a knight bus, w 3 cheap characters, each w weapon.

[Blinder]

I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but, do you feel your local "adjustments" impacted your ability to deal with a unit like that? You mention that your group has nixed a lot of items and that you were playing with no Rares allowed (not sure if that was for that game/scenario, or something else your group generally does). I'm guessing the item bans at least are from a general feeling that they're too dominant (either in raw power, or just in the feel of the game, both of which I'll agree can get boring) but perhaps its time to review your comp edicts, to make sure you're not just moving the repetitive no-brainer status to other items/units?

[knightime98]

I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but, do you feel your local "adjustments" impacted your ability to deal with a unit like that? You mention that your group has nixed a lot of items and that you were playing with no Rares allowed (not sure if that was for that game/scenario, or something else your group generally does). I'm guessing the item bans at least are from a general feeling that they're too dominant (either in raw power, or just in the feel of the game, both of which I'll agree can get boring) but perhaps its time to review your comp edicts, to make sure you're not just moving the repetitive no-brainer status to other items/units?

1. Adjustments - No, I don't think the adjustments (comp pack we use) thwarted anything in my play style.
2. Rares - No rares were just for that one campaign scenario.
3. Banned items - Yes, the Low Hammer rules are in effect. Things like Siren Song, The Pendant of Kaleth, Infernal Puppet... Usually the most offensive item(s) that are abused or are considered over the top are removed as options.

Mostly, this was my first ever game against specifically the new Hex Wraiths. I'm use to seeing ethereals in sizes of 5 or less. The Hex wraiths can be in a size of 10! Along with all their super special rules makes them at first glance redunkulous (my word for over the top/semi - broken). This is what got me the most.. The surprise of how brutally strong they are... If I had known they ignore armor saves, have flaming attacks, s5, and so on.. I would have opted to 2 magic missles for my mage...

Now that I have had some others inputs, I find it strange that I have to include a character with a magic weapon AND a 2+ WS vs Fire. I liken this to buying insurance - if you don't have insurance when you need it you're screwed. If you have insurance and you don't need it - you're squandering money... In this case points!

I'd prefer to not have to have an insurance policy in this example but rather a general use set up (Ruby Ring of Ruin, MM Power level 4).. That really fits the bill and the points level is more correct. I don't want to have to spend 100 points for the possibility of it being needed.....

Again, thanks for your input and advice..

[hazmiter]

It's not a waste of points, especially in the case of dragon helm.
I take a master, on dark Pegasus, w dragon helm, biting blade, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield and dawn stone. He only costs me 190 points, and makes for a good mini destroyer, I use him in almost all lists, the fact he flies, and can hold his own with a 1+ save, rerollable, str 4 and lower can't really touch him. Plus the Pegasus is a bit evil, averaging 5 to 8 kills a game, with the master killing about 9 to 15 on average. I use him in conjunction with dark riders, or cold ones. Only time he failed me was against hexwraiths who hit and killed his darkrider buddies...... Flee, chase, dead :'(

[Blkc57]

Now that I have had some others inputs, I find it strange that I have to include a character with a magic weapon AND a 2+ WS vs Fire. I liken this to buying insurance - if you don't have insurance when you need it you're screwed. If you have insurance and you don't need it - you're squandering money... In this case points!

The problem as I see it knightime98 is that you have a somewhat rigid way of looking at the game. If you think about it, such a character as you describe here has an incredible varied number of uses in Warhammer. Have a Dark Elf hydra giving you trouble on the flank? Put a Dawnstone on the fireproof guy and run him into the hydra, even at str 5 the beast will be hard pressed to get through a 1+ re-rollable armor save, its breath weapon will be useless and since he is cav the hydra can't stomp him. You can lock that thing down for 2-3 turns, until help arrives. He can flank charge a unit with the flaming banner and lock it up or divert it to chase him by trying to pursue him for points. Where I play the metagame is heavily influenced by the new Chaos Dwarves, this guy is a must to block a Kai Dai Destroyer. Some lizardmen run with the Ethereal Slann tossing spells by himself, this guy is a perfect answer to that. Oh noes! it's a Chaos Lord with the flaming sword that does d6 wounds! Challenge accepted says the Captain with dragonhelm! He can dodge Dwarven flaming cannon balls like he is Neo from the Matirx, he can deflect shots from a full unit of Tzeentch flamers like the Man of Steel himself. As a lone character he is incredibly mobile, he is cavalry so he gets swift stride, and he has a decent leadership for his points cost. Even if your opponent brought zero number of flaming attacks, the guy still has a use, run him over to a unit of state troops and watch as they hold those lines like a boss. Clean out fast cavalry and redirectors that are coming for your artillery nest. He is not just an "insurance policy", this guy is an investment that can pay off if you think outside the box. At many tournaments people will always include a guy with the dragonbane gem or dragonhelm just because there is always a use you can find for such a tool, and its better to have the tool and not need it, than sit there staring an ignominious defeat in the face and wish you had brought it.

[Askari]

Now that I have had some others inputs, I find it strange that I have to include a character with a magic weapon AND a 2+ WS vs Fire. I liken this to buying insurance - if you don't have insurance when you need it you're screwed. If you have insurance and you don't need it - you're squandering money... In this case points!

The Dragonbane Gem costs the same as a single Empire Spearman, and gives you a character with a 2+ Ward against Fire. Even if you never use it, would a single extra Spearman make the difference?

If the item was 25/50pts you would have a point, but at it's cost? You'd be foolish not to take it.

[knightime98]

@hazmiter - I have never entertained the idea of a "Capitus" (Captain on a pegasus). It could mirror the same type build that you are suggesting.. Perhaps, I'll give it a try.. I have a Bretonnian Pegasus and it is very easy to retro-fit an Empire model on top. It may be worth it... I'll have to give it a try...

@Blkc57 - Capt kitted for Hydra - Immune to stomp with 2+Ward vs fire... reroll armor save... I see the point and it does make sense. My counter argument is... How long can a 2 wound character really hold out.. It only takes 2 blown saves... a 3+ AS against S5 from a base of 1+ even rerollable can be dicey... Remember they have a combined 13 attacks... It isn't impossible to sneak a few wounds through the saves...
Flank charge unit with flaming banner... - that is ingenious... however, the flaming banner is not taken that much in my group of friends as there really are not all that many regen things that we play.. HPA occasionally, Hydra perhaps... If playing Ogres with their troll guts just about always... All I'm saying is that the Flaming Banner is very situational.. In a tourney game.. it usually pops up in every other army or so... I'd say about 35 to 40 percent of army list will have it..
You do bring some very valid points... As, I noted with hazmiter.. I'll have to give this lone character a "try"..

@Askari - It isn't the 5 or 10 point item that is in question. It is the idea that a new slot for a Captain that is not your BSB needs to be added to my list. Which means that something must be removed. A Captain kitted out on a Pegasus with Sword of (whatever the fear one is) 10 pts plus either the helm or bane gem... is going to be some 100 points or so.. In my book it isn't 5 or 10 pts but 100... Now, I have to judge whether or not the 100 points is worth it.. Again, as stated.. I'll have to give this a try...

I really do appreciate the commentary on the usefulness of a lone Captain... I have neglected taking this as an option.. I have never seen a Capatus in action, however, with a lot of varied insight from the 3 of you.. I will give it try.. It very well may be a great answer to the Hexwraith issue. (no armor save but that 2+ ward is nice... )... I may even bump it to an General of the Empire for 3 wounds.. It's only a 20 pt jump but that extra insurance wound is very nice. Maybe even give a brace of pistols or something.. I really really like this idea a bit better. 2 wound can sneak by fairly easily.. not 3..

Again, thanks guys..

[Glen_Savet]

If your "Capitus" is stubborn, he can also be very useful to simply hold up a block of rank and file soldiery. His own attacks, plus that of the pegasus, and a stomp can serve to even let him win combat on occasion.

[knightime98]

General of the Empire
Pegasus, Swift as wind (reroll 1's to charge)
Full Plate
Enchanted Shield (armor)
actually I can take the White Cloak 2+ WS vs flaming, 5+ Ward otherwise... and enemies are -1 to hit (Talisman)
Crown of Command (stubborn) (enchanted)
Shrieking Blade.. (causes fear) (weapon)

Gives a 1+Armor, 3 W, 2+WS (vs fire)/5+WS normal, cause fear/immune, -1 to hit, Stubborn...

Build just barely legal for Lord level GotE.. Points wise it's around ~ 250'ish

That is solid... against a VC army... I would not normally entertain this idea at all in a tournament with all the blasted shooting around..
I'll have to play test this... However, in a 2k points battle it will leave under 250 to build another lord level character.. (if necessary) such as a Wizard or Arch Lector.

Against Hex Wraiths this is absolutely golden.....

[Askari]

In a Captasus loadout, a General doesn't have an extra wound of insurance - as you use the Pegasus' Wounds value. Ergo, the Captain is a cheaper, better, option.

You can still manage 1+/2+ vs. fire/Stubborn with the Captain;

Captain
Pegasus, Full Plate Armour, Enchanted Shield
Crown of Command, Warrior Bane, Dragonbane Gem

or if Fear (and immunity to it) is more important to you, swap the Enchanted Shield for a mundane one, and Warrior Bane for a Shrieking Blade. Costs just 161pts.

[Blkc57]

Askari is very much correct on this, if the two wounds on the captain make you squeamish, place him on a peg and he gets the wounds profile of his mount since he is monstrous cav. He goes from two to 3 and doesn't chew into your Lord points if you need them for something else (say an Arch lector and a Level 4 Wiz). If you like the leadership and increased item allowance of the general, try out whatever suits you. I'm just glad you are looking at this situation from a tactical view point rather than just conceding that "hexwariths rules are too uber" like a lot of internet arm chair generals do.

[knightime98]

The 2+/2+ stubborn, cause fear is really all that I need..

However, I have a further option as this is a campaign game to add an additional 25 points of magic items to any one character (I have an associated other cost which is part of the campaign to do so). In any event, if I find it necessary - I can boost for this one time additional points. However, I really don't think that is necessary..

The 3 wounds from the Pegasus is just fine... I just simply have not had any exposure to Pegasus riders at all in the last 2 or 3 years.. Bretonians are not all that big in our area... I thought the pegasus as mounts were only 2 wounds... I'm glad you pointed it out..

This really makes this a very desirable build now.. It has all the perfect check marks to go hex wraith hunting.. Speed/immune to fear/2+ save/stubborn and so on..
Edit: The very best part of this is that it is virtually automatic and will completely free up my first magic phase for other offensive stuff/targets..
Wow.. Their is finally some sort of real answer here..
End Edit.

I'm painting that Pegasus right now.. wings/body/tail/mane already done.. need to do the blanket/drape/saddle/barding/eyes and then the rider itself..

[najo]

There is a whole other solution to your problem your missing. Warhammer is first about deployment, movement and positioning. Hexwraiths are solved by flanking them with medium cavalry or something of equal or greater manuverability and decent saves. Any unit that can get on their flank, has a standard, warbanner & musician to break ties, and then survive one or two strength 5 hits from the attack back will kill the hexwraiths through attrition. With flank, banner, war banner you are at +3. Then add a second rank, or a hero with a magic weapon and you are fine. You have a multi purpose hunter unit that can easily cripple the wraiths too.

[Ridarsin]

There is a whole other solution to your problem your missing. Warhammer is first about deployment, movement and positioning. Hexwraiths are solved by flanking them with medium cavalry or something of equal or greater manuverability and decent saves. Any unit that can get on their flank, has a standard, warbanner & musician to break ties, and then survive one or two strength 5 hits from the attack back will kill the hexwraiths through attrition. With flank, banner, war banner you are at +3. Then add a second rank, or a hero with a magic weapon and you are fine. You have a multi purpose hunter unit that can easily cripple the wraiths too.

Hexwraiths ignore armor, so higher toughness it's the way to go. They also cause terror. So while the fear sword helps against running before combat you Will still be testing every round for fear. They're a good unit with advantages, but were always the first unit I'm taking off the battlefield every game.

[T10]

So while the fear sword helps against running before combat you Will still be testing every round for fear.

The "fear sword" does not provide much protection against Terror:

If charged by a model that causes terror, your unit is only immune to Terror if all the models in the unit cause Fear or Terror. By comparison, Immunity to Psychology helps if the majority of the models have the special rule.

-T10

[Blkc57]

The only thing a person really cares about when trying to do a character block likes this is the initial terror test, it is awkward to go to all the trouble and then fail a leadership 8 test to make your guy run like Bolt at the Olympics. Once you are stuck in, fear tests are a minor annoyance and little more. The main point is to rely on that Dragonbane gem to just frustrate his ability to do wounds to you. WHen playing Empire I can understand where Knighttime is coming from that most people's suggestion of "bring a unit and hit it with ranks" is a little silly in this case. Empire can't bring large blocks that won't just feed the hexwraiths with our pathetic toughness 3, and still give up points like a ****. A unit that would need to be mobile enough to catch a fast cav, and have the toughness and staying power to limit the combat res in subsequent rounds, and be cheap enough that you could take as a throw-a-away block? Empire is a little limited on those choices. Its why I always recommend the tried and true Dragonbame gem and Dragon helm for those with serious Hexwraith problems, really does just make those guys worthless when they spend the whole game swinging away and bricking off of a +2 ward save.

[najo]

Empire demigryph knights are perfect for hunting the hexwraiths and other small targets. Three of them is only 204 points with full command, very affordable. They cause fear, thus reducing terror. Reiksguard knights would do well too and only cost 165 for five. You have to worry about terror, but with their ld of 8 they likely are ok. Both units can take warbanner for 35 pts. Stick a mounted captain in with unit with a magic weapon of choice and the hexwraiths won't know what hit them. If you want to overkill the whole thing, make captain your battle standard bearer and give him the warbanner, give the unit the wailing banner (so now they cause terror) and give the captain the ogre blade or sword of strife. Once wraiths are dead (and they will be) send the captain off to join your anvil unit while the knights clean up small stuff. A unit of 5 hex wraiths will be dead on the turn you charge, a unit of 10 dead on his upcoming turn unless he has a ton of IoN and uses it to save the wraiths, in which they die on your following turn.

[Blkc57]

Since this is a rules forum I'll only make one more post here about Empire tactics for the Hexwriaths. While it sounds fine in theory najo, you have to remember you are effectively feeding something that is only toughness 3 and will have no saves to those Hexwraiths. Lets imagine 6 demigrpyhs charge a unit of 5 hexwraiths, they have the War banner and all the standard sauce. You are coming in with only a 4 combat res. Now the wraiths will get to swing back and could on average score 3 wounds easily. Thats enough to remove the last gryph on the line and bring your Combat res down to three effectively giving you barely a victory, with a nasty promise of slaughter on the next round where the VC can both res his guys and increase their combat effectiveness with spells. It seems to me the grpyh deliver system is a complete waste, as all of the hopes of breaking through that hexwraith unit lie on the character. And If you are counting on a character in there why not just do it cheaper by throwing the dragonbane on the guy and sending him in alone? The grpyhs can be off doing something much much more important than just dieing for the sake of holding up some Hexwraiths with very expensive block. The other issue is what do you do when the VC player just decides to simply ride through and not even bother to engage your knights? Thats 4 wounds you are taking, dropping the effectiveness of the grpyh unit again. I would never recommend feeding our expensive Empire knights to something that can be dealt with easier and cheaper.

[najo]

In a frontal charge, what you say is more likely. But I said you should flank hexwraiths. On a flank, you are only going have one or two hexwraiths able to attack back. So t uness the skeletal steeds hit and wound too the hexwraiths only do a max of two wounds. In either case, the character has three attacks along with either plus two strength or plus two attacks from the sword, which means two or three dead wraithsplus your static bonuses bringing you out ahead by three points. Going head to head would be suicide. Flanking is for the win.