I did not see one of these threads for Tomb Kings and thought that this forum could use one.
I did not see one of these threads for Tomb Kings and thought that this forum could use one.
Finnaly, a TK tactics thread.
I remember there being a big tactica someone made about TK on the old version of portent, but as there ain't anymore, I suggest we could make a new one. (with some of you guys who want to help)
At least I would gladly help to make a tactica, or something like that.
Zephyroi
Here's a link to the old thread. It's not working atm, but it may in the future (old portent seems to go and come again, although obviously you can no longer post there).
http://forums.portent.net/showthread...&goto=lastpost
Anyway, I figure I should take some part in this thread (seeing as I started the old one), even if I rarely play khemri now.
Tactica threads tend to 'spark-off' when people ask questions. Without questions, it's as if you're typing to no-one.
-Wez
Ok, then I'll be the one to ask the first question
What do you advice as equipment for a Tomb Prince?
At the moment I use just GW and Armour of the Ages, but am thinking of changing it to Spear of Antarhak, Enchanted Shield, and Light Armour. Is one of those any good, or should I try something entirely different?
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and to remove all doubt."
The Golden Ankhra is a lot better than all those other items mentioned imo. By ignoring 1/2 of all wounds you suffer (4+ ward), it effectively* doubles your wounds. How much would you pay for a +4wounds item? How much is the golden ankhra?Originally Posted by Commander X
Ok, then I'll be the one to ask the first question
What do you advice as equipment for a Tomb Prince?
At the moment I use just GW and Armour of the Ages, but am thinking of changing it to Spear of Antarhak, Enchanted Shield, and Light Armour. Is one of those any good, or should I try something entirely different?
The spear, enchanted shield and light armour looks good on paper. However it makes your king weak in combat (spear only grants +1S when you're charging and mounted on a chariot), is rarely useful (getting one wound back for every one you do, isn't much use when your kings too weak to kill tough things) and you still have a mediocre armour save. It's also expensive, considering how little effect it has compared to a great weapon and ankhra.
A great weapon is imo the best weapon to give him. Striking last has no effect when you're charging/being charged, and with his rubbish initiative, going last in subsequent rounds really isn't a hindrance!
*Exceptions apply, for example when you can't use a ward save)
-Wez
Doubling my wounds gives me only 6
5+ Armor save and 4 wounds gives me an effective 6 wounds.
4+ Ward save and 3 wounds also gives me an effective 6 wounds.
Only difference is that there is more chance you get to use the Wardsave in the first place.
Strange how everyone around here(the here-here, not Portent.) is of the opinion that exactly that: G. Ankhra + GW is a bad idea.(And it actually was the first thing I came up with, I'd better do the thinking myself next time I ask advice for a list)
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and to remove all doubt."
Alright, lets start with the HQ
Which HQ's do you advise taking, and wht wargear should be taken with them?
Is a tomb king better on foot or on chariot?
>>>>>In regards to equipment for a Prince, often a GW is all the weapon he needs, 3 attacks at str6 is nothing to laugh at. However, it does depends on the style of your gaming (which is often determined by which Lord you take) and also how many points the battle is. I myself use the TP (Tomb Prince) more as a support charcter, not a hero killer, although he is a match for some other armies lord choices simply with a great weapon. The most common item I use form my TP is the Chariot of Fire; and that is ofcourse because I mounted him in a unit of chariots half the time.
>>>>>Ah, this should be the start of hte great TK deliema for 2k armies; Tomb King(TK) or High Liche Priest (HLP). I will start off by saying which of these two you choose determiens (for the most part) what kind of army you are running, a TK for more aggressive combat orientated army, and a HLP for more of a sit back and shoot army. It is mostly a choice of gaming style.
I myself prefer the TK, I like taking Chariots as core, and mostly because it fits my style of play. As Wez already mentioned, the Golden Ankhra effectivly doubles your wounds with a 4+ ward save at T5, this is very cost effective. I used to like the spear of antark (sp?) and the Armor of the Ages, but they dont match for effectives, a TK with the Ankhra and a GW is still very capable of dealing out some major hurt; and I do mean major, S7.
As for effectivness, the TK is vialbe in either a chariot or on foot. Most people will tell you that if he is on foot that the Destroyer of Eternities is almost a must have; while I'm not sure if it is a must have, it defenitly has its uses. It grants him with the ability to mow down rank in file troops with its special attacks, and also gives him killing blow for when he is in a challenge; it is very multi purpose. It is alost a point sink at 70pts, but well worth it most of the time. I myself prefer him in a chariot (for fluff reasons really, where else would a King of Khemeri lead from ?), but I think the TK is a devistating opponent in either situation.
What should also be mentioned; however obvious it is; is that the Cloak of the Dunes should almost always be considerd for your Hierophant, either as HLP or a regualr LP; in either case it enables him with invaluable movement that can position himself for timely incantations and get himself out of tight spots; it simply is a must-have for a Hierophant in my opinion, 20pts well spent.
Last edited by Star.Scream; 08-06-2005 at 04:53.
My TK always gets a chariot and the spear of Antarak(sp?)...i find the ability to regain wounds due to the spear to be invaluble, and against High Elves/Skaven (my usual foes) a strength 6 on the charge and 5 the rest of the time is more than sufficent, st7 from a greatweapon would just be overkill.
When taking a King/Prince in a chariot does anyone not take the Chariot of Fire? Apart from its silly name it is a very good item i feel.
My Prince tends to lead my Tomb Guard, i like sword of might/enchanted sheild/Vambraces of sun. This fellow actually killed a Elf Highborn on a griffon in my last game...very funny.
I always use the collar of shapesh over the ankhra first, but most of the time my ankhra is already by my casket of souls priest, or I just don't use em, because the collar is cheaper and almost as good.
Princes are most of the time just plain guys with a GW and some armor (not magic).
If they are important for defense, I tool them up for that, if I want them for offence purposes, I'll tool them for that. But mostly, just plain princes with a GW and LA+shield.
I prefer a LHP over a TK.
Why you ask?
Firstly, the TK army will always need magic to win the game for them (or you will have to be very lucky).
in a TK led army, you almost always need something like tk/lp/lp/lp+banner+staff to get some spells off. THis however will cost alot to use, and won't give you many points left for other units.
In a LHP led army, I prefer lhp/lp/tp+banner+staff. THis gives me 11 normal PD (with jar 1 turn 13) while stayinmg cheap and having a lot of points left for other troops.
Zephyro
I don't take it. 70pts for a chariot that does D6+1 S4 impacts hits? Other armies would laugh at that. You're pay 25 extra points, for an average of 2.5 extra S4 attacks. I'd rather not take that.
Oops, thought you meant tomb kingDoubling my wounds gives me only 6
I'd advise a tomb king and 2-3 liches in 2000pts. The hierophant should probably take cloak of dunes and hieratic jar, while I've mentioned what I think is best on a tomb king.
Depends. If you want a defensive army, stay on foot, but if you're attacking a chariot is a must.
Completely off topic: What's your username about? Your name? Something to do with Tony Blair?
-Wez
Yay, it's alive! We did it!
For <2000 I prefer Prince+2 Priests, or 2 Princes+Priest, anyhow using all 3 slots to get enough casters in the list.
For 2000 I'd use the High Priest, normal Priest, and 2 Princes. Not because I like it that much, but because of the need to get the spells to atleast work half-decent.
@Wez:
Yep, when I ask about Tomb Princes, it's obvious I want to know about Tomb Kings
@Zephyro:
You say it is cheap to use the second way of doing it, but although I use it myself, I still think 245 points is pretty expensive for a single character. Same goes with the staff, 45 points to get more chance of getting a spell off seems a bit too expensive.
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and to remove all doubt."
Which staff are we talking about here? I read Zephyro's post by didnt see which staff he is refing to, although I am pretty sure he is talking about the Staff of Ravening. I honestly dislike this item a lot, even if it can unload 18 hits, its at S2, which is hardly even useful against elves, let alone a lot of the tougher opponetns in the Warhammer world.
If your going to invest that many points on a single character Nefra's Plaque would be a far better choice, Re-roling 2 incantations on 3D6 is a huge atvantage; rarely wil you roll under 7, at least whenever I've used it.
Last edited by Star.Scream; 08-06-2005 at 17:18.
Alrighty, just to make sure that this does not turn into a debate about which HQ's to use. Lets switch to troops.
Is a foot sloger army better then a chariot army, or is it better to take a skeleton horseman army. Or is it better to take a combination of all the above. If the last one, what combination do you suggest. And what HQ's do you normally put in which units.
Wez
My name is Bruce Blair
I go for the combination army for two reasons:
1) I don't own enough units to swing one way or another
2) TKs are one of those rare armies which work the best when balanced.
Sure, we have the ability to move faster than any other army due to magic, but thats not enough on its own because our units are generally weaker than others. So, while an all fast attack army sounds nice in theory, without ranks of infantry to work in conjunction with the fast cav, the cav will come out on the losing end of many combats (particularly if you are using the horsemen). Tomb King cav IMO is best used the same as any other cav in the game. That is, to support rank and rile with flank/rear charges. At this, our cavalry excels because of our ability to magically charge.
This seems like a good point to mention something a lot of people talk about (but I haven't tried because I can't bring myself to paint more heavy cav), which is the 16 man heavy horse unit with the war banner. Some call it the perfect unit killer, others call it a point-sink of epic proportions... maybe someone who's actually used it can shed some light on this.
As for the footslogging army, I think it would work better than the all cav, but it still lacks the necessary balance that I feel TKs need. This sort of army would probably take a Casket and catapult (is there any other rare choice to take with the casket?... i think not). Add some big blocks of archers and enough magical support to pump out the shots and it could work.
But I digress... I generally use something like this for my balanced lists.
TK, 2 LP and the Icon bearer. (I know, no one likes the Icon bearer but me)
3 blocks of 25 Skellies
7 Heavy Horse (Icon bearer here)
3 Chariots (TK goes with them in chariot)
2 Tomb Scorpions
4 Ushabti
From this base, I mix up the rares to suit my preference (though I shy away from the bone giant usually).
The Skellies and Ushabti provide the slow moving base with the Heavy Horse, Chariots and Scorpions used as support.
It works well enough for my tastes, and feels like a good balance between speed and ranks.
For a very detailed series of tomb kings tactics articles, check out Plasmapuff's TACT series.
Last edited by Mooglemen; 08-06-2005 at 21:47.
I prefer the mostly ground and pound style TK approach
Most of the time I employ a refused flank strategy, forcing the enemy to come to me
My tactics evolved over the course of a two month campaign where I played an average of 3-4 times a week, fighting primarily against a mobile TK army, Brets, OK, VC, Empire, and Skaven (Eshin, Skyre, and Pestilince). The Games generally ranged from between 2k and 2500 pts.
Characters
I started with the High Priest with Staff of Ravening, Cloak of the Dunes, and Collar of Shapesh.
Priest with 2DS
two princes - one with Golden Ankhra and GW, the other with sword of Setep (no armour save) and occasionally rode a chariot
Eventually I changed to a King with the Destroyer of Eternities and Collar of Shapesh, because while my army had magic it lacked punch. A king still gives two successful spells cast a phase and usually by turn 3 or 4 my opponents magic defences were depleted.
Core - these units varied in size by the points value of the gave being played
2 x 10-12 Skeleton archers
30-40 Sketeton Warriors with LA, Sh, HW - If I was Using a TK the Banner o/Undying Legion
3-5 Tomb Swarms
Special
1 Scorpion
25 Tomb Guard with Icon of Rakaph (SP?)
3-5 Ushabti
Either 3-6 Carrion or another Scorpion
Rare
Two Screeming Skull Catapults with Skulls of the Foe if I had room
Tactically I would set up the catapult on a flank with just the tomb swarms to screen for them (I love the Small rule). On the Opposite flank I would place the archers up front to absorb early missile fire, magic as well as set up counter charges and poor overrun options
Behind them I would set up the Skelies and Tomb Guard with the Ushabti trailing between them. My Scorps very rarely tunnelled, unless my opponent had an "artillery hill", and My carrion either hunted war machines or run down fleeing units
Incidentally my record in the campaign was 15W - 1D - 2L and First Place overall
You say it is cheap to use the second way of doing it, but although I use it myself, I still think 245 points is pretty expensive for a single character. Same goes with the staff, 45 points to get more chance of getting a spell off seems a bit too expensive.Yes, I am talking about the staff of ravenging.Which staff are we talking about here? I read Zephyro's post by didnt see which staff he is refing to, although I am pretty sure he is talking about the Staff of Ravening. I honestly dislike this item a lot, even if it can unload 18 hits, its at S2, which is hardly even useful against elves, let alone a lot of the tougher opponetns in the Warhammer world.
My regular HLP options would be the cloack of dunes+staff of ravenging.
It really comes in handy against skirmishers, flyers etc. who try to sneak up to your catapults and such, and is always worth it's point in the way I use it.
What is also your favorite unit??(not powerfull, but favo. So fluff and such too, just overall)
Mine has to be the CoS. It has got quite a good effect, which has the potential to do alot of the damage, and so your opponents fear it.(mostly) They also always save up dice for it, while my important spells (mainly movement spells) can just go through. (they ussualy use 3-4 dispel dice) It also got some nice effects for dispelling, which the TK army can need real hard against other heavy magic armies.
ANd it's also quite hard to take it down with shooting, because off the randoming, and that the priest can take the collar/ankhra, while healing the dead casket guards
It also works really well in connection with a catapult next to it.
Zephyro
My has to b
>>>>>Favorite Unit, would be chariots for me. I love these things. Nothing sounds more Tomb King-ish than a dozen chariots zooming (or maybe just strolling) down a flank. This is also why I field my TK in a Chariot; because it looks kick-ass awesome. Besides, where else should a TK lead from?
In response to the Staff of Ravening; I havnt tried it recently; but I usally dont take a LHP, thats probably why; but since its getting some good feedback at the moment I think I'll try switching up my list with a HLP and give it a shot.
In addition to the questions raised by zephyro, I would like to hear peoples opinions on a fulling mounted TK army. I've never tried it, but I do have enough models to. I'm talking an army with :
2 Units of Skeletal Horsemen; 16 strong each.
2 units of chariot, units of 3-4,
+ some constructs (a scorpion for sure), and carrion.
Has anyone tried this sort of list before? On paper it looks tempting (even considering the average-stats of the TK Medium Calvary).
I have a buddy who runs that sort of list
Tomb king, Prince, Icon Bearer, all mounted on chariots
Liche Priest with cloak or on steed
2 * 16 heavy horse
1* 12 chariots (chars included)
2* 4 chariots
4 scorpians
2 bone giants in larger games
Its a very cool list - incredibly fast, manuverable and hard hitting. That being said if he fails to get the charge (vs Brets for example) or fails to break or wipe out whatever he hits (my infantry based TK list) he's in for a world of trouble. He hasn't beat me yet and has had trouble with 1+ save empire knights but has had a field day against Ogres and Brets, and Orcs and Goblins.
His Icon bearer is essential as is the Spear of Antarhak on his king, both of whom are in the big unit of chariots, because they really help compensate for the lack of raising in his force.
Getting two free points of combat resolution for his constructs is awesome.
The one problem I have with the list personally is that it is a one-trick pony - either charge and massarce your opponent or get charged or held up and die horribly.
It looks like we got a good bit of info on the core.
Which special units do you normally take and how many in each unit do you normally take, and what is your tactics with how to best use them.
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