What it says
Destructor is a (special) psychic shooting attack, so does the enemy get an Abhor the Witch save?
What it says
Destructor is a (special) psychic shooting attack, so does the enemy get an Abhor the Witch save?
Originally Posted by Cthell
No. Heres why. And follow close cus it gets windy this is both bad and good.
Warlocks: pg 27 Eldar codex. Warlock Powers: "Each Warlock is a psyker and may be given a single Warlock power at the points listed in the army list."
Destructor Eldar codex pg 28: "Destructor is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. It is worked out like a normal shooting attack with the following profile:..."
Farseer: pg 26 Eldar codex. Psychic Powers: "A Farseer is a psyker and must choose between 1 and 4 Farseer Psychic powers. A Farseer can use a single psychic power per turn."
Warlock Powers: Eldar codex pg 28 : "A Warlocks power is available permanently, so he doesn not need to take a Psychic test to use it."
Psychic Test BRB pg 67: "The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power he's calling upon."
Deny The Witch: "If a Psychic power is targeted on a enemy unit, and the Psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic power is resolved."
ON warlocks Gamesworkshop Eldar FAQ pg2 "Q; What mastery level is a Warlock? A; Mastery level 0- Warlocks dont need warp charges to activate their powers, as they are always on."
Ok so heres the fun part. WArlocks are not using Psychic powers. They are using Warlock powers.
Oh but wait "Jack, Warlocks are Psykers and thus must have psychic powers!"
Nope not true, they are Psykers but they dont have psychic powers...if they do tell me where it says Psychic powers. See you might think " well Farseers say the same thing as Warlocks"
Nope Farseers have Farseer Psychic powers because they are indeed Psychic powers as they are listed in the book on page 28, while on the same page they dont say that warlock powers are warlock Psychic powers, the Warlock has special powers known as Warlock powers.
Nowhere in their listing does it say they have psychic powers or in the Errata does it mention this, it even goes as far as to say they have no mastery level. No mastery level means no warp charges, no warp charges no Psychic powers. But a Warlock despite being a psyker has no option for Psychic powers.
Deny the Witch requires a Psychic power to be used against them. Same with a Psychic hood. And its been that way since 4th ed. Psychic hood does not prevent Destructor so neither does Deny the Witch.
Heres the downside. Some rare wargear and Abilities/ powers out there target all Psykers on the field ....this would also target Warlocks.
I know someone is gonna argue this, but I hope this helps.
" We bring only death, and leave only carrion. It is a message even a human can understand."
Sounds about right to me. Destructor wasn't classed as a psychic attack in 4th or 5th so I don't see why it would be in 6th.
The Wargaming Trader - specialising in late 80s and early 90s Citadel Miniatures.
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ah, okay, thanks.
The only thing that made me wonder was the 3rd, 4th and 5th Ed. psychic hoods being able to nullify it
Psychic Hoods have never been able to nullify Destructor, it doesn't required a Psychic Test to use.
The Wargaming Trader - specialising in late 80s and early 90s Citadel Miniatures.
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Yeah who ever told you they could nullify it with a Hood was a jerk.
" We bring only death, and leave only carrion. It is a message even a human can understand."
That would be GW's FAQs
Curent FAQ does list destructor as a Psychic Shooting Attack and therefor it is also Witchfire. I don't know how that fits in to your argument though. I still say that you need to pass a test to trigger a Deny the Witch attempt though and Warlocks do not take tests. So I think the only restriction to it is that it can only be used in your shooting phase like all othe Witchfire attacks and therefor can not use Wall of Fire template special rule.
I'll think of something appropriate soon enough to put here.
NO, It doesnt list it as a Psychic shooting attack. At least not on their FAQ for Eldar...so please site your source.
And any attack that can be used as a shooting attack can be used as a Overwatch minus anything that doesnt need BS except TEMPLATE weapons in which the WALL of FIRE rule applies.
Why is this so hard to see>?
" We bring only death, and leave only carrion. It is a message even a human can understand."
Okay, let's sweep away some of the chaff that's clogging this thread.
First: Warlock powers are psychic powers. Eldar codex, page 60, WARLOCKS, "Options: All Warlocks may buy one Warlock psychic power from the following list..."
Second: Destructor is a Psychic Shooting Attack. Eldar FAQ, page 2, right column, 6th entry: "Q. Which Eldar psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks? (p28) A: Destructor..."
Third: Destructor is Witchfire. Main rulebook, page 69, left column, second sentence: "Witchfire powers are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks."
So, on the subject of Deny the Witch, that leaves Dwane Diblie's argument that if no psychic test is taken, the trigger for Deny the Witch is not invoked, and no roll can be made. Given the precedent set by equivalent psychic hood rulings in previous editions, I'm inclined to agree with this assessment.
Overwatch for Witchfire has been debated in other threads, to little satisfaction. To my reading, "Witchfire powers aer[sic] manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon." (pg 69, first sentence) is functionally equivalent to "During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy." (pg 12, third sentence) for these purposes. If you can overwatch ranged weapons, you can overwatch Witchfire.
4 incredably relevant quotes that, to me atleast, say that Destructor can ONLY be used in your own Shooting phase, and as a result cannot be used in your opponents Assault phase and therefor can not use the Wall of Fire special rule.
While you are at it read "Manifesting Psychic Powers" on p.67 of the Rulebook. I would have quoted it but it's to large for a quick quote. Read the first 2 paragraphs.
Until I see an FAQ that says Whichfire template powers can use Wall of Fire I am on the side of no they can not unless it states they can in their power description.
I'll think of something appropriate soon enough to put here.
Its really a simple matter of can you cast psychic powers on your opponets turn. If not then no psy overwatch.
And untill someone sources a statment otherwise I would be inclined to say no.
...Are in no meaningful way distinct from "During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy." (pg 12, third sentence) You're merely repeating part of my premise, you're not refuting my argument.
I like how you put that in capital letters. It kind of underscores the fact that your key word is missing from all your evidence. The one thing your argument needs, is the one thing your argument doesn't have. Without the "ONLY", the same rule which allows normal ranged weapons to fire overwatch, also allows Witchfire to do the same, as the rules are functionally identical in this regard.
Wait, what? No, that's not the issue at all. Of course you can potentially use psychic powers in your opponent's turn.Shield of Sanguinius (Blood Angels codex, pg 63) can only be used in the opponent's turn. Then there's force weapons, hammerhand, conceal, force barrier, warp time, who knows what else.
Sorry NC, my previous post was in responce to Spring heeled Jack's post, I just took too long to write it and you got in before me. I was going to put in a 'Ninja' edit until I was you where arguing the other side, so I thought it wasnt needed.
I have since re-read Shooting and Overwatch and am mulling it over. I havent come to a descision as of yet. I do see where you are going though.
I'll think of something appropriate soon enough to put here.
It might also be relevant to support the Destructor-in-Overwatch argument by quoting page 21 of the BRB: "An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves, and so on."
I gotta agree with Grentain and Nurgle Chieftain, Destructor can be fired for Overwatch. There is NO supporting evidence or counter arguments that it cannot. If the opportunity presents itself you may use psychic powers in other players turns. Overwatch is allowing the Player to shoot or do any shooting attack during the opponents assault phase, thus since teh Destructor is fired like and instead of a shooting attack can therefore be used as a shooting attack.
And Chieftain, thanks for the Clearification on the Warlock powers but was a old argument from 4th ed.
Hope this helps
" We bring only death, and leave only carrion. It is a message even a human can understand."
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