Disappointed with 6th

[Artemis360]

I find myself in a funny position lately. Immediately before 6th ed I was full of optimism. More variety, more interesting games and one of the things I hoped for most of all, a boost to close combat. But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$. All the penalties to close combat (overwatch, furious charge nerfed, multicharging nerfed, can't assault from reserve) have messed up close combat thoroughly, while shooting hasn't suffered at all. In fact it's become better now that you can snapfire when gone to ground or when youve moved with a heavy weapon, and most of all, cover saves are worse.

The biggest problem though, is flyers.

I'm still having trouble believing my eyes where flyers are concerned. In 5th I played against leaf-blower hybrid lists, I played against chimera spam and all manner of other cheese. But you know what? As tough as those lists were, you could at least kill individual elements. A grey knight rifledread still died when you deep struck a meltagun next to it or drove round the corner in an attack bike or whatever. A medusa, as horrific as it's strength 10, AP crazy gun was, was still just an open topped, armour 12 vehicle that any railgun, seeker missile or powerfist could put a hole in. Now, someone turning up with 9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army.

Now we have flyers and 3/4 of the races don't have them, while 2 of the races have the ability to spam them to such a degree that no one can deal with them. I'm not even going to attempt my local tournament this year because I simply don't want to buy 3 hydras and an allied detachment to deal with them. Someone suggested to me the other day that fateweaver might offer some kind of defence against flyers. Well, when he gets shot with 27 twin-linked lascannons or 32 twin-linked tesla weapons, I don't think he'll be saving you from anything.

6th ed has really destroyed 40k for me at the moment. It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then? I'm out, I quit. Privateer Press, here I come.

[IcedCrow]

Find a group that doesn't max spam and break the game. Profit.

Or go play warmachine which has its own issues. I'm going back to WM because its nice to mix up my games and I own a cryx army. Flat out quitting because some people are playing in a way i find not fun... not so much. I just find a new group

[Radium]

Or just accept what GW wants from this game now: an enjoyable game. Allow FW stuff, and all of a sudden there's plenty of flyers for everyone to choose from!

[Damocles8]

I find myself in a funny position lately. Immediately before 6th ed I was full of optimism. More variety, more interesting games and one of the things I hoped for most of all, a boost to close combat. But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$. All the penalties to close combat (overwatch, furious charge nerfed, multicharging nerfed, can't assault from reserve) have messed up close combat thoroughly, while shooting hasn't suffered at all. In fact it's become better now that you can snapfire when gone to ground or when youve moved with a heavy weapon, and most of all, cover saves are worse.

The biggest problem though, is flyers.

I'm still having trouble believing my eyes where flyers are concerned. In 5th I played against leaf-blower hybrid lists, I played against chimera spam and all manner of other cheese. But you know what? As tough as those lists were, you could at least kill individual elements. A grey knight rifledread still died when you deep struck a meltagun next to it or drove round the corner in an attack bike or whatever. A medusa, as horrific as it's strength 10, AP crazy gun was, was still just an open topped, armour 12 vehicle that any railgun, seeker missile or powerfist could put a hole in. Now, someone turning up with 9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army.

Now we have flyers and 3/4 of the races don't have them, while 2 of the races have the ability to spam them to such a degree that no one can deal with them. I'm not even going to attempt my local tournament this year because I simply don't want to buy 3 hydras and an allied detachment to deal with them. Someone suggested to me the other day that fateweaver might offer some kind of defence against flyers. Well, when he gets shot with 27 twin-linked lascannons or 32 twin-linked tesla weapons, I don't think he'll be saving you from anything.

6th ed has really destroyed 40k for me at the moment. It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then? I'm out, I quit. Privateer Press, here I come.

You do realise that it's going to be very difficult to field a maxed fly list, right? They don't turn on a dime, they have a limited arc, if you manage to kill everything they have on the table in turn 1, game is over! in a 2000 point tourny, if you put 2000 pts on the table vs. their <1000 pts. that's left, you should be able to kill all of it turn 1.

[Battleworthy Arts]

Sour grapes, man.

I play 40k and war machine. Neither is perfect but both are fun... and an inability to adapt to new conditions will sour you to either one of them.

[Konovalev]

So you've never actually faced flyer spam. Nor do I believe that you have faced any fliers at all if you think they break the game. Honestly I'd be surprised if you've even played a game of 6th and didn't just read some of the rules throw up your hands and go "Worst edition ever I'm out".

Bye, have fun with your other game system.

[Hovey]

I have to ask the original poster.

How many games have you played where either you or the opponent has used a flyer?

Flyers are incredible difficult to use when compared to an average vehicle. They have no table presence turn 1, include that no more then half your army can be in reserve (not including units that have to be in reserve), your opponent using heavy flyer spam will have to put stuff on the board, which you should be able to annihlate unless your army is all close combat. The flyers get turn 2-3 to do shooting, with easily targeting what they want on the first turn they arrive, and mabye targeting what they want the turn after because of limited arc and minimum move distances. In all likly hood the vehicle does nothing on turn 4 of the game, the only option they have is to fly off the table. Turn 5-6 they get to shoot again. Flyers only get 3-4 turns of shooting a game. And if the game ends while they are in reserve they are considered destroyed. Lastly, you need troops to win 5/6 mission in the book. If you concentrate on thier troops (just like in 5th), you can denie them the ability to win.

Flyers are really hard to destroy, but don't get turn 1, they fall off the board 1/3 turns, every other turn they are on the board they won't get to strike what they want, and if they fell off the board the turn the game ends they are destroyed. They are a great support unit, but you can't spam them and expect to win.

Its really easy to look at a Vendetta and think, that 3 twin linked lascannon flyer will shoot my best unit every turn of this 5-7 turn game, and I can't even scratch it.

The reality is at best they get 4 out of 7 turns of shooting, and 2 of those turns at not shooting your best unit.

[Vepr]

I have to ask the original poster.

How many games have you played where either you or the opponent has used a flyer?

Flyers are incredible difficult to use when compared to an average vehicle. They have no table presence turn, include that no more then half your army can be in reserve (not including units that have to be in reserve), your opponent using heavy flyer spam will have to put stuff on the board, which you should be able to annihlate unless your army is all close combat. The flyers get turn 2-3 to do shooting, with easily targeting what they want on the first turn they arrive, and mabye targeting what they want the turn after because of limited arc and minimum move distances. In all likly hood the vehicle does nothing on turn 4 of the game, the only option they have is to fly off the table. Turn 5-6 they get to shoot again. Flyers only get 3-4 turns of shooting a game. And if the game ends while they are in reserve they are considered destroyed. Lastly, you need troops to win 5/6 mission in the book. If you concentrate on thier troops (just like in 5th), you can denie them the ability to win.

Flyers are really to destroy, but don't get turn 1, they fall off the board 1/3 turns, every other turn they are on the board they won't get to strike what they want, and if they fell off the board the turn the game ends they are destroyed. They are a great support unit, but you can't spam them and expect to win.

I thought the storm raven was going to be a nightmare to deal with but it actually came down easier than I expected. Now it did eat a lot of fire over two turns from lootas, defcoptas, and a battlewagon but actually the dice worked against the ork player so it should have come down turn 2 just due to hull points (the first turn it was on the board) if it was not for a lot of lucky jink rolls. I was thinking to myself that three of them would be ugly but then in that big of a game you are going to have trouble maneuvering them or even fitting them on the board in some cases depending on what both sides bring. That being said orks can bring a large volume of medium strength shots to the table giving them a better chance to glance fliers to pieces. I have not faced one with my nids yet so my opinion could change lol.

[Banville]

I find myself in a funny position lately. Immediately before 6th ed I was full of optimism. More variety, more interesting games and one of the things I hoped for most of all, a boost to close combat. But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$. All the penalties to close combat (overwatch, furious charge nerfed, multicharging nerfed, can't assault from reserve) have messed up close combat thoroughly, while shooting hasn't suffered at all. In fact it's become better now that you can snapfire when gone to ground or when youve moved with a heavy weapon, and most of all, cover saves are worse.

The biggest problem though, is flyers.

I'm still having trouble believing my eyes where flyers are concerned. In 5th I played against leaf-blower hybrid lists, I played against chimera spam and all manner of other cheese. But you know what? As tough as those lists were, you could at least kill individual elements. A grey knight rifledread still died when you deep struck a meltagun next to it or drove round the corner in an attack bike or whatever. A medusa, as horrific as it's strength 10, AP crazy gun was, was still just an open topped, armour 12 vehicle that any railgun, seeker missile or powerfist could put a hole in. Now, someone turning up with 9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army.

Now we have flyers and 3/4 of the races don't have them, while 2 of the races have the ability to spam them to such a degree that no one can deal with them. I'm not even going to attempt my local tournament this year because I simply don't want to buy 3 hydras and an allied detachment to deal with them. Someone suggested to me the other day that fateweaver might offer some kind of defence against flyers. Well, when he gets shot with 27 twin-linked lascannons or 32 twin-linked tesla weapons, I don't think he'll be saving you from anything.

6th ed has really destroyed 40k for me at the moment. It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then? I'm out, I quit. Privateer Press, here I come.

Hmmmmmm.....so you're going hulk because GW have put the emphasis back on shooting rather than cloose combat? And hypothetical games where flyers are sooooooo good they'll dominate everything as opposed to being hideously expensive, AV12 glass cannons?

I offer you a shiny penny for the army that you'll never use again.

[tiger g]

I find myself in a funny position lately. Immediately before 6th ed I was full of optimism. More variety, more interesting games and one of the things I hoped for most of all, a boost to close combat. But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$. All the penalties to close combat (overwatch, furious charge nerfed, multicharging nerfed, can't assault from reserve) have messed up close combat thoroughly, while shooting hasn't suffered at all. In fact it's become better now that you can snapfire when gone to ground or when youve moved with a heavy weapon, and most of all, cover saves are worse.

The biggest problem though, is flyers.

I'm still having trouble believing my eyes where flyers are concerned. In 5th I played against leaf-blower hybrid lists, I played against chimera spam and all manner of other cheese. But you know what? As tough as those lists were, you could at least kill individual elements. A grey knight rifledread still died when you deep struck a meltagun next to it or drove round the corner in an attack bike or whatever. A medusa, as horrific as it's strength 10, AP crazy gun was, was still just an open topped, armour 12 vehicle that any railgun, seeker missile or powerfist could put a hole in. Now, someone turning up with 9 - 12 flyers can fully expect most of them to survive to the end of the game while single handedly destroying your whole army.

Now we have flyers and 3/4 of the races don't have them, while 2 of the races have the ability to spam them to such a degree that no one can deal with them. I'm not even going to attempt my local tournament this year because I simply don't want to buy 3 hydras and an allied detachment to deal with them. Someone suggested to me the other day that fateweaver might offer some kind of defence against flyers. Well, when he gets shot with 27 twin-linked lascannons or 32 twin-linked tesla weapons, I don't think he'll be saving you from anything.

6th ed has really destroyed 40k for me at the moment. It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then? I'm out, I quit. Privateer Press, here I come.

sorry you are leaving. Could you direct us to your ebay listings of your armies.

[Carnage]

Hmmmmmm.....so you're going hulk because GW have put the emphasis back on shooting rather than cloose combat? And hypothetical games where flyers are sooooooo good they'll dominate everything as opposed to being hideously expensive, AV12 glass cannons?

I offer you a shiny penny for the army that you'll never use again.

BACK on shooting? 5th was, and now 6th seems to be completely shooting based.

[SideshowLucifer]

It's like any game, you need combined forces. My wraiths still do fine and I shoot fine. Mix in a few of each element you need and learn to pick your opponent's army apart in a manner that hurts them. It's more then point and charge now, thankfully. I was also a PG'er for PP for many many years and I can't imagine you will like their games for long if this is upsetting you.

[Welfstar]

It'll probably balance out after a while (in 1 to 3 years!) but why on Earth should we have to suffer until then?

Yeah, it will balance out. Of course it will.

Why should you have to wait? 'Cos everyone else has to too.

Not all the army books come out at once. They trickle out, one by one, in the same manner they have for the last 25 years. An experienced and passionate player like yourself should be accustomed to this trend.

[blackcherry]

Not shooting based so much.5th edition had a lot of transports, due to how tough vehicles were, that passengers could score in them, you were more mobile and just how much firepower you could bring for the points. In 6th, a lot of those points have been addressed and assault armies are more viable now there will probably be less vehicle spam.

However, the game is taking the route of more balanced forced winning over those that are predominantly one or the other, whilst putting mechanisms in place to stop bezerker charge armies from prior editions.

I remember playing such lists myself in 3rd. Whilst it was fun, I did feel sorry for armies who didn't have the combat ability to beat my 40/50 man marine army, that would get into combat and just roll an army up. At least those shooty armies have a chance to take some guys with them before they are butchered now. Not that overwatch is that powerfulanyway.

Its just a new edition and change=bad. 90% of the people moaning on the forums have no real want to leave the game and won't either. They just need to have a moan to make themselves feel better.

[spagg]

I've played several games of 6th and love it. My group has been having a lot of fun. No one has spammed fliers, but the ones I have faced didn't break the games by any means (I didn't have any fliers or have AA).

[Noserider]

For the little it is worth 6th has actually made me start playing 40k because to me it seems SF skirmish shouldn't have much close quarter combat in, should include low level flyer/fighters and armoured vehicles/tanks should be fragile on a small area of combat unless well supported by infantry. Squads should be able to fire on people closing in on them. Most of the things people tend to be moaning about.

So all in all it's delivered and dragged me away from other rules which are often offered as alternatives to 40k.

Rich Jones

[PANZERBUNNY]

You do realise that it's going to be very difficult to field a maxed fly list, right? They don't turn on a dime, they have a limited arc, if you manage to kill everything they have on the table in turn 1, game is over! in a 2000 point tourny, if you put 2000 pts on the table vs. their <1000 pts. that's left, you should be able to kill all of it turn 1.

Sort of disheartening to hear that this can happen.

Killing half of someones army that easy.

[Carnage]

Sort of disheartening to hear that this can happen.

Killing half of someones army that easy.

He's exaggerating, clearly. You cannot drop 50% of your opponent's army in 1, even 2 turns without some big luck.

[Killgore]

All those flyers? who the hell is capturing the game winning objectives?

or heaven forbid you are playing line em up and knock em down games with no purpose other than to kill?

[blackcherry]

If you outnumber a persons army by close to double the points they have, good players should be able to. But then a lot of the stories people write about tabling opponents in several turns via shooting is due to the table not having enough terrain on it (and a decent mix as well, 3 hills and a wood doesn't count as variety).

Assault armies that use terrain for cover shouldn't have anything to worry about from a shooty army, as long as they have support.