Disappointed with 6th

[Latro_]

I'v not played against flyers yet but i considered a dakka jet for my orks, i found my self really struggling to see how i'd eep it effective with how they move, they really are tricky when you think about it.

Also you have flak cannons you can buy as terrain, tide you over until new books which will blantantly be laden with the new spec rules, including skyfire and flakk missiles and all sorts

Plus you also have reserve roll debuffs etc.

Close combat, no retreat is gone, vehicles are now waffer thin so dont present much of a prob and in CC you smash them.. Kharn is now (i think) the best anti tank unit in the game right now.
Jump troops became better and although the random charge averages 7, fleet now really buffs this with a re-roll on 'either' dice, huge.
Overwatch, meh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmz7uXeWz_c

[Scribe of Khorne]

I look to get one really good round out of my flyers (2 dakka jets) per game. When you line something up right, Waaagh! and its removed as a threat. This is no different then getting a unit in the open and unloading 2 Venoms, or a Dissie Ravager at something, and its far easier to coordinate the movement of those types of vehicles vs Flyers.

6th has really lived up to the hype around here with my group, we are all quite pleased.

[onidemon]

I have gotten to field my Dakkajet once so far. Looking at how it did:

- Ground forces can outmaneuver it to some degree. If you're within eighteen inches of the front of the jet, it's not touching you this turn.

- It's not always around - poor reserve rolls can keep it at bay, as can turns where all it does is fly past your army and off the board

- It can lay down a staggering amount of fire when a Waaagh is called. It will make any Ork cackle with delight. It would be a real terror against squadrons of lightly armored vehicles.

- It is not invulnerable. Rapid firing bolters can be an effective anti-aircraft solution when dealing with Ork flyers, simply because they can glance it to death.

- It is unlikely it die the moment it arrives. Which is nice, as my lonely Valkyrie has never survived a turn on the 5th edition battlefield.

- While it is powerful, you're giving up nearly 22 shoota boyz worth of points to field it. I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather shoot at one un-maneuverable airplane with bolters and hope for some glancing hits, than try to deal with 22 more ork boyz parked on an objective.

Of course, this is with only one jet. Three could be a real headache, but that's a headache for armies without air support now, and a headache for the owner of $150 worth of Dakkajets when AA weapons and interceptors start appearing in every army.

Oh, and it looks ace on the board.

[Grindgodgrind]

Whole lot of knee jerking going on around here. I'm really enjoying 6th ed, personally.

[mostlyharmless]

How many points is a quad-gun turret? I don't have my rulebook in front of me, so I'm not sure. Last I checked, that would end a flyer's day pretty quick.

[squeekenator]

Yeah, my first instinct upon seeing the flyer rules was to switch out all my ravagers for razorwings and wipe the board clean in an instant. After actually playing some games, though, I'm back to the ravagers. Fliers move really fast, but in many ways their mobility is actually worse than a ground vehicle's, to the point where even when they are on the board, half the time they won't be able to shoot at anything. I'll admit I didn't play that many games, but in my experience, each flier gets two or three turns to shoot every game. Yes, they're hard to kill. BS1 sucks. But they don't really dish out enough firepower to be worth shooting at anyway. Just ignore them and focus on the stuff that does die.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

an inability to adapt to new conditions will sour you to either one of them.

So you've never actually faced flyer spam. Nor do I believe that you have faced any fliers at all if you think they break the game.

How many games have you played where either you or the opponent has used a flyer?

Hmmmmmm.....so you're going hulk because GW have put the emphasis back on shooting rather than cloose combat?

Why should you have to wait? 'Cos everyone else has to too.

Not all the army books come out at once.

Is it just me? I'm having a hard time seeing why any of the above reasons is enough to continue playing 40k. The slow release schedule is a huge problem for me. The OP doesn't like the flyer rules. He thinks the rules look cheesy. And if they aren't cheesy and overpowered, he can still dislike the rules. What is he supposed to do? Refuse any opponent who has a flyer? So the game changed. It changed in a way the OP didn't like and now he's 'going hulk' and playing like he's got a pair. What's the problem with that?

And an inability to adapt to imperfect conditions won't ruin every game for you if you happen to like the imperfect game in the first place. So the OP can go play privateer press and bask in all the imperfections of warmahordes. And I bet he'll enjoy it.

But now 6th is out and its not only fallen short of what I've hoped, but kicked a lot of things I loved in the @$$.

This is enough. If a game doesn't deliver like you want it to, there's no reason you should be forced to like it; or even forced to change it to your liking. There's a good quote from someone around here "With warhammer, you have fun in spite of the rules."

That's just dumb. IMO no one should play a game and struggle to overcome their dislike for the rules in order to have fun. If you don't like the rules, don't play by the rules. An easy way to do this is to play a different game. One with rules you like more.

To conclude, however, I must say that I disagree with your decision to quit warhammer cold-turkey. I do hope you enjoy PP (I know I am!), but keep your warhammer "good times" in mind.

IMO, each edition of 40k is a different yet similar game. Just because you don't like 6th edition doesn't mean you don't like what 40k means to you. All that a new edition means to me is less people to play with. Get together with some like-minded 5th edition-ers and play at someone's house. Or, you know. At a club. In spite of all the shooty-flying new-bookers.

[Artemis360]

This is really bizarre. A bunch of people telling me I am clearly basing this on theory and haven't really played fliers. Well, it seems that some of you are the ones who havent played fliers so i'll give you the benefit of my experience. Here's a brief battle report of a game I played.

My list:

Corteaz

6x henchmen squads (3 multimelta servitors, 2 warriors, twin-linked lascannon razorback)
3x psyfle dreadnauts
2x stormravens (hurricane bolters, assault cannon, psybolt ammo, multimelta)

His list:

2x destroyer necron lords, tachyon arrows, warscythes

6x 5 necron warriors in night scythe transports

3x doom scythes.

This was tournament practice with my buddy and I built a list to give him the hardest time I could so that we could see if he really did have a good shot at 1st place. We set up with 2 pieces of area terrain in each corner and some high ruined walls dotted around.

Deployment:
Destroyer lords both deploy out of sight behind some ruins. Everything else in reserve since theyre flyers and have to be.

I deploy all my dreads and razorbacks spread out across my deployment zone, grabbing cover where I can.

Turn 1: He hides.

My turn 1: I move up closer to the middle of the board, pop smoke on most of my units. I can't draw LOS to his destroyer lords.

Turn 2: 7 out of 9 flyers arrive, including 2 of the doom scythes. Some come on at an extreme angle in order to bring their fire to bear on the closer units. 1 deathray insta-pops a dreadnaut and takes a hullpoint from a razorback, it's destructors take the rest of the hull points from the razorback.
The two destroyer lords come out of cover and fire their tachyon arrows. One dreadnaut insta-pops, another is immobilised.
Another razorback is hull-pointed to death by destructors (getting hitting with all 4 shots, one being a 6, so 6 hits altogether).
Anyway, this goes on until 2 out of 3 dreads are dead, along with 4 out of 6 razorbacks.

My turn 2: Both stormravens arrive. One multimeltas a doomscythe to death with machine spirit and steals a hullpoint from another with all its psybolt fire. The other stormraven takes down another nightscythe. Most of my multimelta servitors miss and one is cover saved. Another manages to put an immobilised result on a nightscythe, which of course doesnt kill it. Another nightscythe suffers weapon destroyed from one of the two lascannon razorbacks. The remaining rifledread rolls 3, 4, 5, 5 and thus misses.

Death toll is now: 1 nightscythe, 1 doomscythe - to - 4 razorbacks, 2 rifledreads and a few henchmen dying to explode results.

Turn 3: The rest of his stuff arrives. Doesn't requir much description except to say that both stormravens die (due to being hit with a bunch of twin-linked tesla and a deathray from the remaining doom scythe. The last dreadnaut dies, along with 1 more razorback. He also drops off some of his necron warriors who are about to rapid fire some of my infantry.

With the deathtoll now being 10 out of 11 of my vehicles and me having no way to shoot his flyers down, I concede.


Now, maybe you don't agree with my list or the way I played, but if you think a full flier build can't take your army apart, then you obviously haven't played a necron flier list. I still haven't played a vendetta spam and I don't think I'm going to.

Edit: I also want to say that I wouldn't ever normally run this list. It was just for tournament practice. The razorbacks, corteaz and the henchmen were all proxies.

[agurus1]

Can't you only reserve 50%? You friend was not playing with a legal list if so.

[Omniassiah]

Can't you only reserve 50%? You friend was not playing with a legal list if so.

50% of your units that can start on the table must. In his friends case he deployed 100% of the models that must be deployed on the table.

[Ronin_eX]

Units that must be deployed in reserve (i.e. flyers) are not counted against the limit and if the unit is a dedicated transport it and its parent unit are counted as a single unit. That said with only two units starting on the board at the beginning of the game it seems like it is a huge risk to field that list (especially if you are dealing with an army with first turn deepstrikers like Space Marines).

That said, your list is the kind of thing one would have expected to be a power list... last edition. Did you design this list with an eye toward using the new edition or did you just take a list from last edition and call it a day? Mech was one of the things specifically neutered in this edition and you had it out in full swing. Had you taken a more flexible list, perhaps with some pods or other first-turn DS options then you would have been able to exploit the fact that he starts with two models on the field. Kill those two models and he loses. A Sternguard drop-pod assault list would eat him alive with some combi-melta units in there (as I recall the Destroyer Lord can't grab the 2+ save upgrade so even combi-plasma would eat him alive). Starting with nearly 90+% of your army in reserve is a big risk in this edition.

Anything that can deploy good infiltrators, deep strikers on the first turn or has the mobility to get a firing angle on them (or just bring guard with a lot of big, indirect fire, guns) would rip you friend's list a new one. Sure, if things go his way he's in a good position, but relying on luck too much will make for a bad competitive list. Not to mention if you had actually brought any fortifications with Skyfire weaponry on them.

The metagame has changed, spamming mech-units may not be the best way to go. Take this loss as a lesson and change things up. We don't know what the metagame actually looks like yet because half of the people are sticking to old tactics and the other half have glommed on to flyer-heavy lists that seem to trump the prior lists. Few people are working on anything else yet. Remember, 5th's metagame was only really understood later in its life when mech finally took off. You were testing out a tournament build and you found out what its apparent foil was. If you can foresee Necron flyer lists being a problem at tourneys then put something in the list to deal with them. In your friend's case the easy tactic is to kill the two lords on the first turn. And I figure the GK have a good chunk of ways to do that in their list. Two unsupported units shouldn't last too long unless your list was not expecting such an occurrence.

[agurus1]

yeah I mean seriously the necron player is lucky you wen't able to kill him turn 1 that would have been hilarious lol

hell if you had got 1st turn you would have had 2 player turns to pop his lords

[ModelCalamity]

I don't understand how you possibly could have lost.

Your list was an absolute cc monster. By all rights this should have been an auto win.

I particularly like how you hugged cover the first turn because those short ranged necrons are at their most dangerous outside their 24" range.

I also like how you manage to place your storm ravens so that they still can be shot at even if all his flyers still need to move 18" inches.

[Sexiest_hero]

Although you may not agree with the OPs opinion, He has a right to voice them without the mocking. Necron fliers are the tops this edition, much like leaf blowers, avoidplaying the in friendly games, and learn to survive them in tourny games. The razor wall of 5th is dead, you need more bodies.

[Rick Blaine]

OP probably played terribly, but I find the replies saying that Vendettas are hard to use and unmaneuverable absolutely hilarious. Hover mode, ever heard of it? You have 2 turns in Zoom mode to clear anything that could conceivably threaten you, then when you reach the opposite edge of the table you go Hover, turn on a dime, and shoot whatever vehicles are left in the ****. Game.

[MasterDecoy]

This is really bizarre. A bunch of people telling me I am clearly basing this on theory and haven't really played fliers. Well, it seems that some of you are the ones who havent played fliers so i'll give you the benefit of my experience. Here's a brief battle report of a game I played.

My list:

Corteaz

6x henchmen squads (3 multimelta servitors, 2 warriors, twin-linked lascannon razorback)
3x psyfle dreadnauts
2x stormravens (hurricane bolters, assault cannon, psybolt ammo, multimelta)

His list:

2x destroyer necron lords, tachyon arrows, warscythes

6x 5 necron warriors in night scythe transports

3x doom scythes.

This was tournament practice with my buddy and I built a list to give him the hardest time I could so that we could see if he really did have a good shot at 1st place. We set up with 2 pieces of area terrain in each corner and some high ruined walls dotted around.

Deployment:
Destroyer lords both deploy out of sight behind some ruins. Everything else in reserve since theyre flyers and have to be.

I deploy all my dreads and razorbacks spread out across my deployment zone, grabbing cover where I can.

Turn 1: He hides.

My turn 1: I move up closer to the middle of the board, pop smoke on most of my units. I can't draw LOS to his destroyer lords.

Turn 2: 7 out of 9 flyers arrive, including 2 of the doom scythes. Some come on at an extreme angle in order to bring their fire to bear on the closer units. 1 deathray insta-pops a dreadnaut and takes a hullpoint from a razorback, it's destructors take the rest of the hull points from the razorback.
The two destroyer lords come out of cover and fire their tachyon arrows. One dreadnaut insta-pops, another is immobilised.
Another razorback is hull-pointed to death by destructors (getting hitting with all 4 shots, one being a 6, so 6 hits altogether).
Anyway, this goes on until 2 out of 3 dreads are dead, along with 4 out of 6 razorbacks.

My turn 2: Both stormravens arrive. One multimeltas a doomscythe to death with machine spirit and steals a hullpoint from another with all its psybolt fire. The other stormraven takes down another nightscythe. Most of my multimelta servitors miss and one is cover saved. Another manages to put an immobilised result on a nightscythe, which of course doesnt kill it. Another nightscythe suffers weapon destroyed from one of the two lascannon razorbacks. The remaining rifledread rolls 3, 4, 5, 5 and thus misses.

Death toll is now: 1 nightscythe, 1 doomscythe - to - 4 razorbacks, 2 rifledreads and a few henchmen dying to explode results.

Turn 3: The rest of his stuff arrives. Doesn't requir much description except to say that both stormravens die (due to being hit with a bunch of twin-linked tesla and a deathray from the remaining doom scythe. The last dreadnaut dies, along with 1 more razorback. He also drops off some of his necron warriors who are about to rapid fire some of my infantry.

With the deathtoll now being 10 out of 11 of my vehicles and me having no way to shoot his flyers down, I concede.


Now, maybe you don't agree with my list or the way I played, but if you think a full flier build can't take your army apart, then you obviously haven't played a necron flier list. I still haven't played a vendetta spam and I don't think I'm going to.

Edit: I also want to say that I wouldn't ever normally run this list. It was just for tournament practice. The razorbacks, corteaz and the henchmen were all proxies.

just to make sure ive got this right:

you knew what you where up against (at least suspected) when he deployed virtually nothing, decided to deploy everything (as much as you could anyway) knowing he would have first turn, let him alpha stike you, then complained because your 5th ed list doesnt auto win anymore because you chose not to keep anything in reserve to come back with...

yup, rulebooks fault as far as I can see

[Battleworthy Arts]

God forbid you take your experience, analyze it, and come up with a plan. That would be playing the game.

Much better to ragequit.

But hey, when people are looking this hard for a reason not to play, I say let them quit. Its your money and your time, and you certainly arent obliged to play a game you dont want to play. But if really want to play 40k, and feel it is somehow "ruined", you are in fact being silly.

[Artemis360]

The majority of the last few responses are incredibly insulting, negative and unhelpful. If someone says they have a problem and expresses how aggrovated they feel about it and your first response is to enjoy the opportunity to be as offensive as possible, your response is valueless - basically wasted bandwidth. If I'd read a post like this by someone else, I'd probably have thought about it and written up any tactics I could think of for them to use. Certainly I wouldn't just say they played terribly without any constructive input on how to improve their game. It's stuff like this that makes threads not useful. Most of all, it certainly doesn't show that you have any note-worthy skills yourself.

And as for any venomous comments made as a response to what you might consider to be someone playing a ******* 5th ed style list, as I stated before, I don't own or have ever owned any razorbacks or heavily mechanised armies. I never bought into the power builds of 5th. This was a game with a lot of proxy on my part between two friends exploring the limits of one of their necron flyer lists.

The thing I'm most curious about is how many of you have actually played against a list like the one I faced. Who here has actually played a game of 6th against a list of less than 2000 points with at least 7 or 8 flyers in?

[IJW]

The majority of the last few responses are incredibly insulting, negative and unhelpful.

I tend to agree, although reading your OP I'm at a loss as to why you thought/hoped close combat would be more powerful.

Regarding the game against the Necrons, I think a lot of that was due to Necrons having gone back to being the ultimate vehicle-killing army and most of your list's punch being vehicles. Flyers only added to that problem.

Plus it's arguable whether he could have kept all the Necron Warriors in reserve, it's only transports that have to enter via Deep Strike that don't count the transported units.

[mughi3]

Privateer Press, here I come.

Nah you need to come over to a better game and join us over at corvis belle's infinity. great rules, refreshing mechanics, wonderful minis and a great big lump of actual strategy that includes more than rolling buckets of dice.