Grailknight and kings

[TheDungen]

Lo folks, two questions.


Do grail knights leave their families when they have drunk from the grail. That doesn't seem very chivalrous since it basically means that a knight taking up the quest will never return to his family or his duty as the ruler of his land.

If they don't then can grail knights have children? Is there any indication that they may pass on some of the blessing to their offspring? If so then the brettonian nobility would in time become very different from regular humans.

And also, is Brettonia a hereditary monarchy? or an elective one?

[Naanomi]

Most grail knights are either young and landless when they begin their quests, or old veterans whose families probably do not need them. I'm sure there are stories to be told of knights leaving their families, but it isn't the norm. In any case, it is such a great honor to be chosen by the Grail I doubt their living family would see it in the least bit 'unchivilrous' about it.

I don't know if it it spelled out, but becoming a Grail Knight is a supernatural process that leads you beyond mortal concerns, including one would imagine marriages or other couplings, so I doubt the issue of children ever comes up.

The Brettonian monarchy is in practice somewhat hereditary, but appointment by the Fey Enchantress is ultimately the deciding factor. So it is, in reality, neither hereditary nor elective but rather an appointed office.

[Lord Zarkov]

IIRC the Bretonnina monarchy is hereditary, with the proviso that the King must be a Grail Knight.

Also Grail knights can have families - spoiler from The Red Duke

After the Red Duke is defeated his brother (the King) assumes control of Aquitaine until he marries his daughter to a Grail Knight of supposedly 'unknown' lineage (actually the son of the Red Duke) to whom he then passed the Duchy of Aquitaine (in order to keep the Duchy in the hands of his brothers descendants)

[Artinam]

Grail Knights can be of any position. Its all when they get a vision of the Lady to seek her out (and prove their worthiness). Can happen to anyone. Dukes don't have to be Grail Knights, but the King is always one.

[woodster17]

Knights who take on the quest aren't landless or young by any means. In fact, most of the Bretonnian question stories seem to detail Knights of the Realm with castles and land who simply believe they should commit their lives to a higher calling. I did enjoy the Calard stories by the way. Great read.

[TheDungen]

So do you think the king passes on any of his changed physiology to his heirs?

[woodster17]

You mean does he pass on grail characteristics? No, i'd imagine he passes on his good traits like most genetics between parents and child but i think the King (and everyone else in Bretonnia) wouldn't like it if the heir inherited physiology that needs to be earned through the quest. That wouldn't be 'honourable' at all, would be somewhat of a cheat and I don't think the heir would appreciate it either; he would want to prove his own mettle.

[Sheena Easton]

I could be completely wrong but I thought Grail Knights didn't breed / marry - that is what they do when they are Knights Errant / Of The Realm and when they take up The Quest they forsake all else, including the cavyonesque cleavage of Brettoni wenches, and dedicate themselves to The Lady.

[woodster17]

If they had been married beforehand they would't relinquish their woman though. I suppose it depends upon what age they go questing, whether they have a family and heed a higher calling although that would surely influence their decision too. They're still human after all, they may not engage in whoring but are known to return home to castles and their land after the quest has been completed. It would be nice to have more canon on them though, must admit.

[Urgat]

There was at least one king that was a total failure and got replaced by the Fey (don't remember his name). If we consider that all kings are Grail Knights, we have to assume that seeping from the Grail doesn't suddenly make you a monk. You become more than a man, you've shown great valor, but that doesn't make you a good man.

[woodster17]

There was at least one king that was a total failure and got replaced by the Fey (don't remember his name). If we consider that all kings are Grail Knights, we have to assume that seeping from the Grail doesn't suddenly make you a monk. You become more than a man, you've shown great valor, but that doesn't make you a good man.

Which is weird considering that to sip from the Grail the Lady must deem you worthy in every way to receive their blessing. It's almost like being removed as King is an admission that the Lady doesn't always get it right.

[Athelassan]

The monarchy in Bretonnia seems like it's supposed to be hereditary, but I think sometimes writers forget that they're not writing about the Empire and treat it as elective. Which I suppose is marginally better than doing it the other way round, but it's still annoying.

The succession law isn't clear in any case. Given the trouble European monarchs had producing enough adult sons to pass their kingdoms onto while simultaneously producing sufficiently few that they didn't all fall out and tear the kingdom apart in war, adding an extra criterion onto the candidacy is either a stroke of genius or unutterable idiocy. Which it is probably depends on the individual.

There's an additional question of what happens if the heir apparent is too young, or has yet to embark on his Grail Quest - does he inherit the throne and then go on the quest? I think that's what Louis the Rash did. Or does the throne pass to the next male heir who is already a Grail Knight? (Addressing this problem in an imaginative fashion could even lead to the reconciliation of Charles de la Tete d'Or with modern background!)

The Bretonnian background is really pretty thin, still based largely on the cod Arthur stuff of 5th edition. Unfortunately, while Knights of the Grail did a fairly good job of detailing Bretonnian dukedoms and individual characters, it didn't answer a lot of the big questions - like most of what would be nice to know about the eponymous knights. This was probably because the then current 6th ed army book was little more than a pamphlet that used its background section to make clear it was divorcing itself from the Camelot stuff of 5th edition (fine) then didn't actually replace it with anything (typical).

It seems that, as mentioned above, Grail Knights don't forsake their families when they go on the quest, although it's possible that if they were unmarried when they left they then remain celibate. I'm not sure though. Knights of the Grail, in an under-remarked passage, noted that Damsels (of the Grail) are specifically not celibate, although they can't marry, and some are widely renowned for their lack of celibacy. So maybe the knights aren't required to but it's just common practice - maybe having drunk from the Grail they don't feel lust in the same way? There doesn't seem to be any particular reason why they should be celibate, and since the king is required to be a GK such a requirement would seem counterproductive.

Which is weird considering that to sip from the Grail the Lady must deem you worthy in every way to receive their blessing. It's almost like being removed as King is an admission that the Lady doesn't always get it right.

Depends what you mean by "worthy" of course. Perhaps "is likely to serve the purposes of the elves adequately" is the real criterion, which opens the door up to all sorts of shenanigans.

[TheDungen]

i'm not saying they pass on their full blessed traits thats not the way genetics works at best they pass on half and thats only if the blessing is really genetic enhancement. but if they pass on small portions over many many generation the long term effect might be interesting.

As for the grail being elven manipulation the topic have been discussed to death i still hold that while the fey enchantress may be, the blessing of the grail is far beyond what the elves are capable of.

[Voodoo1]

In the Knights of Bretonnia series, the Grail knight Reolus has sexual encounters with Calard's sister.

I think sipping from the Grail keeps your little soldiers pure! 

[Urgat]

Which is weird considering that to sip from the Grail the Lady must deem you worthy in every way to receive their blessing. It's almost like being removed as King is an admission that the Lady doesn't always get it right.

She wouldn't be the only one to get it wrong though. Caledor II did step through the flames of Asuryan, and there's plenty of Chosens of chaos who were poorly, well, chosen
Anyway, as far as I can tell, none of the Warhammer gods are omnipotent, event Tzeentch was jealous of Kairos ability to see in the future.

As for the grail being elven manipulation the topic have been discussed to death i still hold that while the fey enchantress may be, the blessing of the grail is far beyond what the elves are capable of.

That. I'll hold to my belief that the Lady is a land spirit akin to the spirit of the Forest of Loren. Makes no sense that a wood elf would grant her blessings to the brets even when they're kicking some WE asses. WE aren't Tzeentch, and tehy aren't numerous enough to be able to afford such twisted plots. "Hello, we' can make super humans that can occasionally rub our faces in the mud, but we aren't going to make some of our own, you know, so as to fool everybody!"

[Arnizipal]

Addressing this problem in an imaginative fashion could even lead to the reconciliation of Charles de la Tete d'Or with modern background!

He's out? Isn't he just Louen's predecessor?

[Lord Zarkov]

he's out? Isn't he just Louen's predecessor?

Well he could be, but the timeline no longer lines up.

In Beasts in Velvet the Genevieve series for example Charles de la Tete d'Or is supposedly still King, and KF has been Emperor for a while; however the date given nowdays for Louen's coronation is a good few years before Karl Franz's so there was never a point when Charles's and KF's reigns overlapped.

[Sheena Easton]

I could be completely wrong but I thought Grail Knights didn't breed / marry - that is what they do when they are Knights Errant / Of The Realm and when they take up The Quest they forsake all else, including the cavyonesque cleavage of Brettoni wenches, and dedicate themselves to The Lady.

I have since discovered this applies to Questing Knights but may not apply to Grail Knights

In the Knights of Bretonnia series, the Grail knight Reolus has sexual encounters with Calard's sister.

Who is a Damsel! Though I don't think any other Brettonians would consider it partly due to them being "fey-touched" and partly due to them being linked to The Lady.

[Voodoo1]

@ Sheena, that is what I meant. She was a Damsel, i was just saying he was a Grail knight that liked to fornicate...

[Urgat]

I'm not too sure why people seem to think Grail Knights suddenly forsake everything but the Lady when they drink from the grail... it's not a brainwashing or anything, it just means they've overcome their trials and they get some kind of holy power. I don't think whatever their personality was before changes at all. Usually their trials are about killing monsters and being generally badass, not running their lives as ascetics. At least, I don't remember the Bretonnian book ever saying so (that being said, I don't remember, so I could very well be totally wrong in that regard). They certainly don't ride around in rags, if you ask me. It's like figuring that Ian Solo would suddenly act like Obiwan Kenobi if he could become a Jedi: wouldn't happen