I have been seeing this a lot. Not really sure how justified it is. Seems more or less tears of anger still from a new edition.
Maybe its that i dont run an optimizer list but im not seeing how they suddenly got broken powerful.
Their hull glancing rule has always existed. Im popping tanks at about the same rate as before.
Im not seeing any auto win here. So someone please justify in detail how necrons are now grey knights level broken.
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
Heralds of the Storm have a good chance of one-shotting most vehicles, 2 of them is essentially guaranteed.
Access to an all-flyer army which is horrific with the current lack of anti-tank.
2 of the big points.
Originally Posted by Grimshawl
They do only have a 12" range though.
getting them in to a position where they can fire requires extra investment or your opponant to obligingly drive up to them.
You can't make an army which deploys nothing though. I wopuldn't be too comfortable with relying on a couple of small warrior squads to survive long enough to prevent an auto-loss.
Necrons are good, but they're not any more crazy-overpowered than other factions/builds.
Necrons got some nice buffs with 6th edition, but most of those serve simply to move Necron list design away from "Max out on Pyromancers...???...WIN!"
Last edited by Lord Damocles; 20-07-2012 at 12:12.
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Around my store, almost all of the complaining about necrons has centered around how easily they kill tanks. I've watched 2 squads of 10 necrons warriors kill a land raider on the first turn and predictably led to complaining that "necrons are so overpowered now". Also, many of the biggest changes in 6th edition have looked like good buffs for them (like the change to rapid fire and immediate access to a great flyer).
I think they're a really good army now, but nowhere broken like the 7th edition WFB chaos demons (will be my gold standard for broken for a long time).
Thing is Necron Warriors could kill a landraider in turn 1 a couple months ago too. I've done it.
The flying thing... again... you'd have an army consisting of a handful of warriors. And the vehicles are short range. I don't see how broken that is. I think thats actually an incredibly stupid (not to mention boring) list. It has its high points and plenty of lows to go along with it.
In fantasy yeah the 7th edition daemons were the king of cracked. In 40k its been the grey knights. I am failing to see how the necrons are even anywhere near what a broken GK codex can be. Powerful? Sure they have some powerful builds. Broken? No.
Last edited by IcedCrow; 20-07-2012 at 12:24.
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
I think a lot of it is simply perception. Since lots of people were spamming vehicles in 5th, and now Necrons can reliably kill vehicles, everyone is QQing about it.
If 5th would have never existed, and we went straight from 4th (where few used vehicles and virtually no one relied on them to win games), we're not having this conversation.
Eventually the meta will shift, people will paint new models, and we'll be back to the old days of each side fielding a couple of vehicles and they won't seem OP anymore.
Short answer: "OP", "broken" and "cheese" are terms that get thrown at anything and everything on the internet.
Wait... that's the long answer too.
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Necrons imho are on par with IG. An optimized list of those 2 armies is something i think no one can play against right now.
p.s.: go to ground and resurrection protocol. I think you can buy enough time for your fliers to utterly destroy everything on sight.
Pick a unit at random from the cron codex. It probably got better in 6th.
It's not so much that they are totally broken, just that they appeared to have gained the most and lost the least relative to other books and were already pretty powerful to begin with.
Well yeah... they said they wrote the cron codex with 6th in mind... this makes sense to me that a lot of units got buffs because it was written to be used in 6th ed... wait for the other books to be brought up to date.
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
The vehicle killing thing is due to how reliable it is now. Before you had to roll really, really well to kill it with glances. Now, 4 glances and it's automatically dead. It's a big step up from lucky to be dead to reliably dead. That's the perception on people's minds.
Gauss-glancing has indeed always existed, but we've just gone essentially an entire edition where it was (from what i saw, at least) used more to lock vehicles down, rather than outright kill them. Now its a lot closer to its 3e/4e effectiveness (can't get lucky with one rand-o-glance, but you can reliably count down how many you need), AND as has been noted vehicles are a lot more prevalent (because they've been a lot more effective) than back in those days (which a lot of people probably don't remember anyway). So, people are suddenly *routinely* having tanks popped by the likes of warrior blobs that used to just be an annoyance... this can lead to a bit of a shock.
Flyer-spam is the new "red cape" it seems, and Necrons do that pretty well, too. Gauss popped my land raider AND there's a bunch of flyers whizzing around that I can't hit?!?
So, two of the current hot-button issues, plus the inherent obnoxiousness that necrons have always had (I'll be honest, I generally dislike playing against necrons. I *hate* feeling like I have to kill each model 2 or 3 times over...), plus a lot of *new* obnoxious toys from the still-fairly-new codex that turned a fairly limited army into a quite strong army with *gasp* options...
I agree necrons are probably now on par with IG: an army that for a very long time had been pretty low on the totem-pole has been bumped up a bit and even comes with a "super-build" or two, so people are in a panic trying to figure out how to deal with it. Like IG, it seems a few things should probably lead to a bludgeoning for whoever came up with the point values so I'll grant that there are some valid arguments on the side of, "this is just silly," but really I think it is far too early to declare them completely broken rather than being quite strong with a side of abusable units that should be griped about individually.
Meh its still not reliably dead though. If its sitting out in the open sure... however with cover saves being what they are... a necron warrior needs to roll a 6. At that point the vehicle can get a cover save. Plus vehicles tend to also outdistance necrons in shooting (not everyone fields the storm lord) so it's not a given to me that vehicles are just popping left and right, because they aren't.
Those warrior squads still have to get in range. And then they have to roll 6s. And then the vehicles are going to get cover saves. And then the necrons can get assaulted by most things and at least stop their warrior shooting if not wipe out the warrior squad as combat is not something necron warriors are good at.
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
GW had a great chance (and still has) to bring things in a relative balance regarding the rules with the use of the errata files. Instead the company released poorly writen documents that don't address a ton of questions that arise from the new edition and improve nothing with additional rules. For instance no one would complain if the Wave serpant got the assault vehicle rule and in fact many where expecting such a change. That leaves us with some quite impractical - funny rules from the conflict that arises from 5th edition codexes and 6th edition rules like for instance abaddons sword being AP3 which is hilarious. So the armies that benefited the most are the ones with the most recent codex like necrons for example.
On top of that there is a disturbing lack of fliers models for most armies that makes people anxious, since none of as has a lot of 6th edition games under it's belt and it feels kinda strange to walk into a game facing a model type you don't even have access to. It's not like eldar have fliers and those fliers suck, they don't have any fliers at all!
I believe that necrons OP whine is something that will go away the farther we get into 6th and more codexes are released but from my personal view releasing an edition and tramping peoples armies doesn't seem as a respectful behavior towards the clients-consumers.
Our weapons cut through them, like a blade through air.
Eldar have fliers but they are forge world models. In our group those are allowed =)
NOTE: my use of the word "powergamer" is not meant as a derrogatory or inflammatory word used in a negative context. It is used to describe a type of player that uses power builds
It's been my experience that vehicles are dying a lot more then they were in 5th edition. Sure, vehicles can get cover saves. It helps. However, the fact still remains that after 4 glances get through, the land raider is dead. Before, the minimum you needed to destroy a land raider with necron warriors was to get 5 glances and have all of those rolls come up as a 5 or 6. That's a giant step up in killing power against tanks rather then just stopping power. In 5th if you glanced them you were really lucky if you immobilized them. Otherwise they usually just couldn't shoot (or always couldn't shoot if they had extra armor) but they were still coming in those tanks. A land raider with thunder hammers were really hard to stop from getting to you without getting lucky. Now, not so much when the things go reliably down.
My foot eldar army loves the new vehicle killing rules. In my last 2 games I've killed 2 rhinos, 2 razorbacks, a land raider, a storm raven, a venom, 2 ravagers and 3 raiders and done it quickly. I always hated fighting the big parking lot lists because it always took too long to kill a tank without any type of luck.
Last edited by Emissary; 20-07-2012 at 13:29.
Necrons also have access to some of the best Wound Allocation abuse. Chronometron plus a 2+/3++ save on a Lord or Overlord and you gain a unit that is nigh indestructible. On top of that, you could theoretically do 2 chronometrons and an OL in a unit to give the OL multiple re-rolls. Lords and Overlords are also some of the best duelists in the game thanks to Mindshackle scarabs, Tesseract Labyrinths and Warscythes. Tesla Weapons only got better, thanks to AP - not giving -1 to damage rolls any more. Gauss weapons obviously got better. Command Barges improved in several ways. Wraiths even got arguably better, not that they needed it.
Eldars are an example. I am trying to explain my point of view on the Necrons OP subject. GW is a multi million company and still behaves like customers are ten years old that aren't gonna notice... I am still pissed about how incomplete the Errata documents where considering the vast amount of time they had to playtest and prepare the edition. It almost feels like someone read the 6th edition rules a week before the release and made some correction on each codex while drinking coctails by the beach, or even worse being in the toilet and reading while trying really hard for number2!!
No play test at all leads to the best codex being the most recent one since this one was written by the same persons that wrote the rules and not by anonymous Joe something.
Our weapons cut through them, like a blade through air.
IMO there is no problem with Necrons. I do not own a necron army but play the occasional game against then.
The problems with them arise only for my Eldar. Neither the DE nor the various Marines or Orks have serious problems beating them.
Yes, they glance anything to death, but as they glanced anything to uselessness of death before, nothing changed.
Yes, they have various new and fancy toys in the new dex. But marines get such things with every dex AND get a new dex every other day.
The tactics changes against them are due to the new assault rules and overwatch mostly. To me at least.
Besides a table with LOTS of terrain ruins, forests etc. (50% it should be) evens out the field quite nicely.
And in an open terrain (campaign sometimes makes it necessary) well, you can't win all your games.....
I'm not one of those that thinks Necrons are necessarily OP, but they are extremely powerful. Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Tau stand as the armies to beat right now because 6th Edition places a premium on shooting. All three of these lists bring effective, saturation fire to the battle, albeit with some minor variations in advantage based on range. Necrons lack a lot of effective "long range" shooting (the kind to pop cans) but they have other ways to effectively shred vehicles anyway. They are devastating "mid range" shooters with excellent armor saves and that nasty habit of getting back up. Dark Eldar spam shooting, ignore Night Fighting, have the Lance, and can fight. The Tau have STR-5 saturation shooting, markerlights, and long range. They just can't fight worth a damn.
The key thing is the shooting and it bears out. With proper placement a gun line can stall out a charge, i.e. cause it to end in a phase due to a lack of base contact. This assumes, of course, that you were able to reach them in the first place. Short of using uber-potent combos to make Nurgle types get broken FNP saves on top of their high toughness and saves, I have watched Tau liquidate Plague Marines going hellbent for leather very effectively in a reliable trend. It is unfortunate but if you want your assault troops to make it you have to "break it."
For better or for worse, until a few new weird Codex change up the META, the gun line is king and those armies which field the best, most cost-effective gun lines will dominate. I don't know if this makes them OP or not. It is far too early to make that call. I will say that I fear fighting Tau more than GK now.
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