Mathhammer =/= equal actuall dice rolling . You could b e getting consistently good saves and awfull shooting. Real game doesnt work like people imply it does just because maths suggests it does.Originally Posted by A.T.
Mathhammer =/= equal actuall dice rolling . You could b e getting consistently good saves and awfull shooting. Real game doesnt work like people imply it does just because maths suggests it does.
In this case the real game works exactly as the maths suggest it does, unless you are using loaded dice.
Gauss rifles glance, on average, once every 9 shots out of cover - this is the performance by which their anti-tank power should be measured. Your personal mileage may vary.
The point is the statistical mean by itself is only half the picture, the other half being variance so basing an argument on statistics you really should use both if you want a rational argument.
Walk softly, and carry a big gun.
The "math-hammer" tells you how a unit will perform on average, what is *should* do. That can vary in an actual game of course, but most of the time won't be too far off the average either way, and you shouldn't plan on a unit performing significantly better or worse than its average unless there's some huge built in variance or its built around wildly different binary results that give an impossible average.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
57th Krieg Panzerpionier (Mechanized Imperial Guard Death Korps of Krieg Grenadier IG army, Infantry, Tanks, Army)
IV Astartes Legion: Iron Warriors Chaos Space Marines 7th Grand Company. (Log-Updated Feb 13!)
9th Haalvak Legion. Mechanized Infantry Log
Heavy Gear Log!
Alright. When I play my Crons I run 10 man Warriors and Immortals (which in my opinion are vastly superior to warriors) and I run with Wraiths and usually a monolith and then whatever other units compliment each other.
Warriors are NOT OP. Period. "But they can kill land raiders!?!?!?!" Yes. How many games have you lost because you had a Land Raider get far too close to a troop choice? If the answer is even 1, than perhaps not pinning victory on a very expensive tank might help you win at WH40K. Reanimation Protocols aren't as good as WBB, and on top of that in quite a few games so far I have had squads wiped out in Sweeping Advances, which mind you cannot happen to Marines.
Marines are still very much competitive and I have lost to Blood Angels so far. I played against Space Wolves and beat him because he was woefully unaware that his wolf squad would kill itself. I am not playing a spam flyer list. Spam warriors I guess as I run 4 squads of 10 and 10 immortals. But that is because of taking objectives which can be tricky as I seldom use transports.
I don't buy the OP unless someone talks about the lord councils. Then I say you have a valid point, but a point that can be nullified with long range focus fire (Tau and SW easily). So no I don't buy into the Marine players calling foul. My deathwing would like to have a word about being OP after the termmy buff, and we are about to get a new dex!
Necrons are far from the level Grey Knights were. Mind Shackle Scarabs are about the only thing that is even close to "broken" in the codex, and that by itself doesnt make a broken army since you cant bring 50 of them. For all the fear about the "ScytheWing" I dont think it would win just due to lack of scoring troops, and the "whole army in reserves" thing. Necrons kill vehicles, so people take less, therefore making Necrons less good. Easy as that. Theyre still probably the top codex at the moment, but not "OP".
I played a match over the weekend against IG, and I have to say.....he beat me on objectives. Sure I killed almost all his vehicles by the end of the game, but in the end he was able to out maneuver me.
I tried the whole 9 warriors + stormtek in a ghost ark, and its super nasty against vehicles....but I failed to 1 shot a leman russ in rapid fire range. That made me sad. 28 gauss shots, plus 4 haywire shots and I only glanced twice.
Since you would need to field lots of warriors to reliably kill vehicles I don't think it shifts that balance that far. After all your list will suffer if you just pile in as many warriors as you can.
Ha sorry, I chuckled at that one. +1000 internets to you good sir.
As a necron player I really don't get the whole OP argument either. Greentide orks are pretty much an insta-win against our army, for example, and other CC armies like DOA BA can roll over us fairly easy. I think it's more a case of necrons being very good against elite armies which many WAAC and new players use as suddenly their uber-units get vaped by a deathray and they call foul.
"But I being poor have only my dreams. Tread softly, for you tread on my dreams." ~ Yeats
General of: ~3k Necrons, ~4k Chaos, and ~3k of Tyranids.
Orks have more flyers. Are they OP? Dark eldar and IG have the same amount. Unless you are taking Doomscythes and have an opponent that wont argue the deathray not hitting fliers shiz to death, you are glancing marine fliers and valkyries on 5s. FIVES. Even with good chances of hitting, that is only a 33% chance of doing anything. LOL people will bitch because they hate change and what worked in 5th doesnt always work in 6th. Necrons are a very good codex now instead of the steaming pile they were before their latest update. They still have weak/useless units like everything else, they still fall pretty hard in most cc and almost every other army can outrange shoot them. Codexes/codices wax and wane in their power scheme and marines dont always have to be the coolest. Get over it.
Accept certain inalienable truths: Necrons will rise, invulnerable saves will fail, you too will deep strike off of the table, and when you do you'll fantasize that when you were young Necrons didn't come back, Terminators were gods and the scatter die always read "Hit".
Ork flyers are AV10 and aren't transports (that sidestep the downsides of flyer transports) or don't have deathrays
And only really IG flyers, really just the Vendetta, are considered as good, and that's because the vendetta is very undercosted.Are they OP? Dark eldar and IG have the same amount.
They are glancing on 5's, but with an average of 5 hits from their TL Tesla weaponry, compared with most other flyers averaging 1-2 hits.Unless you are taking Doomscythes and have an opponent that wont argue the deathray not hitting fliers shiz to death, you are glancing marine fliers and valkyries on 5s. FIVES. Even with good chances of hitting, that is only a 33% chance of doing anything. LOL people will bitch because they hate change and what worked in 5th doesnt always work in 6th.
yes, but they aren't necessary nor fill any particular need.Necrons are a very good codex now instead of the steaming pile they were before their latest update. They still have weak/useless units like everything else
They can mitigate that very well, especially with Lords and councils, and have some excellent CC units and tarpits of their own, they have no reason to fall hard in CC between Wraiths, Scarabs, and by far the cheapest and most cost effective MC's in the game that can be taken in units of 3...Canoptek Spiders.they still fall pretty hard in most cc
And if they really want they can make practically the entire game nightfight to mitigate that.and almost every other army can outrange shoot them.
Methinks you are now projecting your personal issues onto something where they aren't applicable.Codexes/codices wax and wane in their power scheme and marines dont always have to be the coolest. Get over it.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
57th Krieg Panzerpionier (Mechanized Imperial Guard Death Korps of Krieg Grenadier IG army, Infantry, Tanks, Army)
IV Astartes Legion: Iron Warriors Chaos Space Marines 7th Grand Company. (Log-Updated Feb 13!)
9th Haalvak Legion. Mechanized Infantry Log
Heavy Gear Log!
erm ? marine squad with melta gun ?
Marine squad with melta gun and lascannon ?
Good against infantry and tanks.
Derp.
as a lomg time necron player i agree with the above post 100%. mech armies in 3rd and 4th were terrified of my necrons. i laughed hard when dreadnaughts would DS behind my warrior squads. 1 turn later of gauss to the face and they would be dead. 5th came and necrons became a joke until the latest codex was released. in 4th everyone complained that necrons were OP and Hard. new players that have only been around since 5th are feeling a bit of shock when they find a land raider getting hosed by standard infantry. "But they are just warriors...can you show me the rules?!" Necrons are back...and they are not happy...
Lol, most mech armies were scared of my Necrons in 5th as well (pre-new dex). With the entire army being able to shake/stun/disarm/destroy vehicles it tended to be a nice counter to parking lot lists. Thing was, that there weren't a huge amount of Necron players in 5th for that to be well known, and fewer still who really knew to play them competatively. Once I learned how to play against them, I had more to fear from Orks than I did Leaf Blower/Mech vets. I even made a guard player cry once.... lol.
So being awesome vs mech isn't new. What is new is having more than 2 competative builds, nice options, point efficiency, and having some gimmicks aside from the Decievers false deployment.
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I like to use the point that many other troop units get the more reliable Plasmas or Meltas to pop vehicles. That you can go slag with as few as two infantry is great! While necrons ability to glance stays until you kill each and every one, their chance to slag goes down as you kill. Given the lack of precision shots in general I find it a cop out to say "but they kill vehicles, with their basic infantry; FOR NO UPGRADES!!?" is ignoring that upgrades are so good.
Look at melta vets or PCS squads, for 50-100 pts you can get nigh guaranteed kills. Yeah it takes 12", but it's always effective. Gauss shots are always argued about from the perspective of AV13+; where as most vehicles are not that tough. It takes the same number of shots to slag a Rhino or Raider as it does a Leman Russ; but it doesn't matter, people will continue to whine as long as something decent in the codex exists. It's sticking around this edition and that's awesome.
People see that Crons not buying upgrades as some sort of buff; I see it as a lack of variety. The fact is; Grey Hunters or the like are easily as good and they have the versatility of being armed with anything your army lacks. Warriors and Immortals won't be gunning down MCs reliably anytime soon, nor will they be killing marines in droves (any more than other marines that is.) The difference is that one squad needs to specialize to melt raiders and one can't specialize to melt anything else.
People fail to realize that 'Crons pay for this by:
-Not having Initiative, CCWs, Fearless, ATSKNF, or a number of other things to keep them on the board when combat hits
-Not having options
-Not having leaders
-Not having "force multipliers" (save Ghost Arks and sort of Spyders/ResOrbs) (A La Wolf Banner, Sang Priests, Psykers, Orders/Officers, KFF, that type of thing)
Screw with their leadership, mess with their weak combat ability, alpha-strike them, shoot them outside of their range. Mobility is also an issue for them at times (due to mid-range); while they have lots of mobility in the form of transports and fast units; they can't, say, catch Typhoons very easily that are flying backwards blasting them every turn. 48" range units can be used quite effectively on the crons, and if you wish to survive; they *must* be.
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