Explain: necrons OP?

[IcedCrow]

Did you listen to what you just said? If one army has that capability/advantage where others don't, isn't that the definition of overpowered?

Many armies have abilities that other armies don't. That would mean all of those armies are also overpowered yes?

[Zinch]

- Glancing on 6's. You say this is the same before. This is simply not true. Before you were completely at the mercy of the vehicle damage chart, whereas now you get 3-4 glances and a vehicle is just gone. Combine this with less cover saves and Necrons just single handedly destroyed the vehicle meta. BTW since you complained about lack of math, it takes 14 Necron Warriors on average to mpop any HP3 tank, which is almost all of them. Statistically this didn't happen in 5th edition. So exactly where in that is anything the same as before?

Live didn't begin in 5th edition. When someone says "it's just as before" he/she is referring to 3rd/4th edition where a SINGLE warrior could kill a Land Raider.

Name me one other unit in the game that can, on average rolls, make back its points in one turn of firepower, and be good at both anti-infantry AND anti-tank at the same time.

This only happens whenever you put your warriors in rapid fire range of their BEST target in the whole game.

Other examples? On the top of my head:

10 Marines with a meltagun against 10 wyches or 8-9 genestealers
10 Sisters with a meltagun against 10 wyches or 8-9 genestealers

[Mercutius]

10 Marines with a flamer against 10 wyches or 8-9 genestealers
10 Sisters with a flamer against 10 wyches or 8-9 genestealers

Jeah, 8-9 genestealers are quite common theses days...

And how are thoughs Marines with just a flamer are _also_ effective against an Land Raider?

[A.T.]

... isn't that the definition of overpowered?

Don't go there ... ah, to late!

Now that 6th is here the necrons are about where they should be on Ward's personal power-creep curve. No doubt his next book will include an interceptor that goes through flyers like a windscreen goes through bugs, assault troops that strike first regardless of init, and vehicles that can save against hull point loss.

Give it an edition or two and both crons and GK will slide to the back of the pack, propped up by the few sad Cruddace efforts that tripped on the starting blocks. Until GW gets a grip on codex creep it's always going to go this way - the question as to whether a new Ward codex is OP is sadly redundant.

[Xerkics]

Comparing necrons to grey knights having had a grey knight army under old codex i can say : i dunno if they are op but gknights and their wargear is absurdly undercosted Now. for necrons i can never run enough of what i want. Things that are too cheap in necrons is tomb blades and annih barges by about 10-20points

[Zinch]

Jeah, 8-9 genestealers are quite common theses days...

Jeah, because Land Raider has to be playable against EVERY army (necrons are the only one easily glancing it), but genestealers are fine being crap...

[Striker_002]

Many armies have abilities that other armies don't. That would mean all of those armies are also overpowered yes?

Not when said army/unit has an "overall" advantage in capabilities. It's like saying dynamite is balanced compared to rock, paper and scissors. Other armies choose to bring a unit that is good at anti-tank OR anti-infantry(Or mediocre at both), necrons get both in one package that costs no more and is effective at both...

[Bonzai]

Name me one other unit in the game that can, on average rolls, make back its points in one turn of firepower, and be good at both anti-infantry AND anti-tank at the same time.

Actually there are plenty, in a variety of codexes. However I will grant that most of the time those units are not in the troop slot. Things like Wraithguard, flamers of Tzeentch, or even CSM Terminators with Combi-plasma (no monoliths or LR's unless you go with Combi-melta), can all wipe out squads of infantry or tanks with equal ease. If you open it up to include assaults, the list gets bigger.

Sure, Warriors have a nice all around gun. Yeah, they can reliably glance vehicles. So can most units now with a strength of 4 or better. Big deal. Yes they are brutal against vehicles. So are Tau and DE. It's just exaggerated a bit with the new rules, which all armies are affected by. The funny thing is that I play necrons, and rarely ever take out vehicles with my warriors. Vehicles never make it that far as I am packing 9 hvy destroyers, 3 anhilliation barges, two triarch stalkers, and lance court. Gauss is an afterthought, with the changes to AP2 having a bigger impact. Then again my list is kind of A-typical.

[IcedCrow]

I think the biggest complaint boils down to

"it's not fair that the necrons have a troop choice that can kill tanks and infantry both and my army does not"

I've already expressed the odds of a unit of 10 necron warriors killing a tank. It's not numerically probable in one turn. It's just that they CAN do so, and because they CAN do so... well... they are obviously busted =P

But a unit of 10 marines with a melta in it is just as good against infantry as the 10 necron warriors are, and in addition has a greater chance of one shot killing the tank then the necrons do. YOu just have to be smarter about where you position the melta now.

A 260 point necron warrior unit CAN numerically pop a tank in one round of shooting but that's 260 points taking out a model less worth than it.

That's not broken. From a balance perspective, that's fine to me. If i'm up against necrons I'll be sure to try to keep my vehicles away from them and accept that's what they do. My chaos army is going to have its own special tricks.

[Striker_002]

The problem is that necron warriors, an "anti-infantry" unit are better tank busters than "dedicated tank-busters"

IE: An IG 3 man lascannon team is one of the definitions of dedicated anti-tank. On average,they will glance/pen a AV14 vehicle 0.5 times a turn(or once every two turns.) This is 1/2hp a turn with small chance of death after losing a hullpoint.
9 Necron warriors are equivalent cost, and will glance said landraider(at long range) once(1) a turn or twice(2) with rapid-fire. These warriors will hullpoint a vehicle to death long before a lascannon team can do so, barring a lucky vehicle destroyed result on a pen.(1/6 chance to pen, 1/6 chance to destroy=1/36 chance after a hit....)
Also, the warriors are far more effective at anti-infantry then the lascannon team.

[Vaktathi]

Gauss aside, it's really the tricks and gimmicks the book has that personally irk me. It's *very* gimmicky, and built around a lot of things the game went out of its way to keep out or make not possible for a decade, or that just are completely removed from player skill/command ability. Stuff like the Stormlord merely needing to be included in an army list to have a very powerful effect on the opponents army and then 'roll 6's and kill stuff anywhere and everywhere', or the death ray being able to pick models out of units, etc. It plays and feels like an amateur fan-dex in terms of the way it operates on the table, not really something put out by a professional game designer.

[Bonzai]

Not when said army/unit has an "overall" advantage in capabilities. It's like saying dynamite is balanced compared to rock, paper and scissors. Other armies choose to bring a unit that is good at anti-tank OR anti-infantry(Or mediocre at both), necrons get both in one package that costs no more and is effective at both...

Necron warriors are average at anti-infantry, and only slightly better than average at anti tank against non-AV 14 tanks. What is the most common troop in the game? A Tactal Squad marine. Oh look, they have the same gun stats aside from the gauss rule, but also get a free melta and grenades. Seems pretty even to me, as the melta will more reliably pen a vehicle.

I think you are grossly exaggerating how great warriors are. They have always been solid, and are better with the new codex. However against most vehicles, Tau Fire Warriors with their Str 5 guns are just as effective against armor, and are even cheaper. Are they over powered too?

[IcedCrow]

Space marines with a melta are also largely more effective at anti-infantry than the lascannon team.

9 necron warriors will glance a raider 1x typically maybe 2x per shooting phase. Lascannon team is looking for the penetrating strike which means that they can kill the land raider with any penetrating hit.

So to the assertation that they will hullpoint a vehicle to death long before the lascannon team... no.

9 necron warriors = 6 hits = 1 glancing hit per shooting phase at range and 2 glancing hits if allowed to be within 12".
That means at range they take 4 turns on average.

The las cannon crew has a 50% to hit, and then a 33% to glance or penetrate. Which means that compared to the 9 necron warriors above he is close to effectiveness in terms of just the glancing hit. However he has a 1/6 chance of penetrating which causes other issues for the tank, like making it not shoot, blowing off weapons, immobilizing it, or flat out killing it.

1 Necron warrior's percent chance of glance hitting a tank: 11.1%
1 Lascannon crew's percent chance of glance hitting a tank: 16.7%

1 Necron warrior's percent chance of penetrating hitting a tank: 0%
1 Lascannon crew's percent chance of penetrating hitting a tank: 8.3%

So the las cannon compared with the 9 necron warriors is about roughly equal in its battlefield role. Considering many games are about objectives, its not always neccessary to "make back your points". It can be just as effective to disable the tank and prevent it from shooting at you as it is to kill it, which a lascannon crew can do and where the necrons cannot until they hull point it out.

The fixation of "making your points back" and "the necrons have a higher chance of killing a tank" are the problems here. It is not always required to kill the tank. And if I recall, a penetrating shot also takes off a hull point. So no again the necron warriors aren't vastly superior in this scenario. They have an advantage in that the las cannon crew needs to protect the las cannon whereas the necron warriors do not. That's not a massive game breaking advantage though.

Now for 9 necron warriors, killing a tank is on average 4 turns of shooting at range if the tank is a land raider and 3 turns of shooting at range if it is a tank. If you're letting necron warriors get within 12" to double their chances of you and not shooting back at them, then that's another story entirely and why comparisons in vaccums like this don't work.

"but then the rest of the army gets to attack me" <~~ popular counter argument.

Yes. And you have a rest of your army as well.

[Vaktathi]

Necron warriors are average at anti-infantry, and only slightly better than average at anti tank against non-AV 14 tanks. What is the most common troop in the game? A Tactal Squad marine. Oh look, they have the same gun stats aside from the gauss rule, but also get a free melta and grenades. Seems pretty even to me, as the melta will more reliably pen a vehicle.

To be fair, the specialist models often can get picked out, or will be the first to die if up front (as is often the case with meltas/flamers). The grenades are handy however. That said, the marines are also more expensive, for 10 marines you can get 13 warriors, and the marines don't get back up.

I think you are grossly exaggerating how great warriors are. They have always been solid, and are better with the new codex. However against most vehicles, Tau Fire Warriors with their Str 5 guns are just as effective against armor, and are even cheaper. Are they over powered too?

How are S5 guns just as effective against tanks? If it's AV12 or higher they can't do anything to it, Against AV11 the Warriors are better point for point at glancing, it's only against AV10 that the fire warriors have any advantage on anyone, and they're only BS3 as well.

[Xerkics]

Also hw team have like twice the range of necron wars safely shooting at whatever

[Striker_002]

The warriors have a 30inch range effective. It is rare they won't have a chance to shoot at their target unless they are at the far ends of the board from eachother.(Who's going to place necron warriors touching their table edge?)

Space marines with a melta are also largely more effective at anti-infantry than the lascannon team.

Why yes, they are! But why bring up that example when they aren't remotely as effecitve in the anti-tank role? one melta only does so much.

[IcedCrow]

Then there's also cover which people keep convieniently forgetting to mention which can also nullify some of those glancing hits.

[Bonzai]

To be fair, the specialist models often can get picked out, or will be the first to die if up front (as is often the case with meltas/flamers). The grenades are handy however. That said, the marines are also more expensive, for 10 marines you can get 13 warriors, and the marines don't get back up.

How are S5 guns just as effective against tanks? If it's AV12 or higher they can't do anything to it, Against AV11 the Warriors are better point for point at glancing, it's only against AV10 that the fire warriors have any advantage on anyone, and they're only BS3 as well.

True, Marines are more expensive. However they have better stats, and some extra bells and whistles for those points so it's a wash for the most part. Granted, a xeno being the equal of a marine is kind of unheard of, and people may cry foul on principle.

I did say most vehicles, which tend to be transports (at least in 5th edition). Fire warriors will need 6's to glance on front armor 11, just like Necron Warriors.

[Striker_002]

Then there's also cover which people keep convieniently forgetting to mention which can also nullify some of those glancing hits.

Which appllies equally to all range anti-tank. It is not unique to necron gauss.

[IcedCrow]

No it's not unique to necron gauss. However, all of your tanks exploding simultaneously in turn 1 when faced by necrons seems to be the common conensus and that is not going to happen.