Most Sucsessful Invasion in warhammer

[The bearded one]

You're ignoring the point that he lost *his* bloodline, that a close relative got the crown doesn't change that, he failed one of his primary duties as a hereditary monarch which was ensuring *his* succession not his brother's or his cousin's. The fact the war went on for centuries after Snorri's death just proves his failure, he had plenty of time to squirt a new princeling into comely lass' belly.

While definately a shame multo grandé, it seems more a case of "aww, crap" and more of a personal tragedy than a failing of his kingly duties. While of course we have not much info on dwarf high king duties, dwarf culture and mindset is radically different from that of humans and I am under the assumption that the most important thing would be to preserve the bloodline of the ancestor gods, which they did. Interrupted father-son sucession happens plenty often, there's a note on it in the dwarf armybook. The title of king is hereditary, but not father-son hereditary, but hereditary within the entire ruling clan. If a dwarf king has no heir, or the heir is (more rarely) unsuited or 'disgraced', another heir must be selected from the ruling clan, and it is the duty of the king to select and supervise the training of a successor from within his clan.

Furthermore note that the ratio of dwarf men to dwarf women is 3 to 1, and not all get married, so far from every dwarf ever gets to marry and have children, meaning this practice of selecting an heir that is not a son must happen all the time. Also Gotrek Starbreaker lived for a very long time because he was "too stubborn to die" as he had unfinished bussines with the elves, but he expired very shortly after the war. His wife, however, may already have been dead for centuries. The war ended more than 400 years after Snorri Halfhand died, after all.

As for Caledor and the Pheopnix Crown, I didn't dispute that, so what's your point?

I wasn't saying you disputed it, just pressing home the point of the gravity of elven losses

[Drasanil]

Furthermore note that the ratio of dwarf men to dwarf women is 3 to 1, and not all get married, so far from every dwarf ever gets to marry and have children, meaning this practice of selecting an heir that is not a son must happen all the time. Also Gotrek Starbreaker lived for a very long time because he was "too stubborn to die" as he had unfinished bussines with the elves, but he expired very shortly after the war. His wife, however, may already have been dead for centuries. The war ended more than 400 years after Snorri Halfhand died, after all.

Aye, would just expect that the further up you go the social food chain the less likely the standard dwarf mating problem would be an issue (a problem I like to ignore entirely since the 3 for 1 is thing a really really dumb piece of background). As for the High King's first wife being dead, is there anything in dwarven conventions that would stop him from taking another?

I wasn't saying you disputed it, just pressing home the point of the gravity of elven losses

Define 'elven' and 'loss', a dark elf player my only real disappointment is that they put a hippie in charge instead of a Caledor III to keep the war going

[Craze_b0i]

Well, not so much as a result of his invasions, but more of him being repulsed by the Nehekharans (led by Alcadizaar) and then going the "oh yeah, well if I can't have Nehekhara.. nobody can!"-route, by poisoning the river vitae and killing 9/10ths of the population, before killing everybody and raising all the dead with his great ritual.

Well I didn't mean the first invasion where he got whupped. I meant the second one where he succeeded. Plaguing 9/10 of your opponents to death and then marching in to stomp on the survivors is a pretty effective tactic to ensure total success.

The Ogres destruction of the Sky Titans, while successful, was not an invasion as opposed to a forced migration as a result of the meteor strike/ Great Maw. The Sky Titans simply happened to be in the same area that the Ogres had migrated to.

I disagree. An invasion is still an invasion whatever the cause of it.

[woodster17]

I disagree. An invasion is still an invasion whatever the cause of it.

I suppose, but there is a distinct difference between a planned invasion (which the others were) and the Ogres simply stumbling across the Sky Titans as they weakly made their way out of the Eastern Steppes after the destruction of their homeland. In addition, this war was almost entirely based upon hunger rather than the desire to malevolently destroy like an Orc invasion (although of course the Orcs presumably wouldn't mind a tasty bit of flesh too).

Edit: To enter by force in order to conquer or pillage.

That's the first dictionary definition I found online. It points very directly to deliberate intention of invasion.

[Lord Zarkov]

Well I didn't mean the first invasion where he got whupped. I meant the second one where he succeeded. Plaguing 9/10 of your opponents to death and then marching in to stomp on the survivors is a pretty effective tactic to ensure total success.

Yup especially as, according to the latest background in Nagash Immortal, killing nearly everyone with the plague was plan A anyway (since he has more control over them dead), and the initial invasion, while obviously he would have been happy with success, was mainly so the Nehekharans knew why they were dieing of the plague, and who exactly was the cause.

[Arnizipal]

Nobody in the Empire in their right minds would claim that Sylvania is governed by the Emperor but see where you coming from.

It was part of the Empire ever since it got conquered millenia ago.
That people don't like to go there doesn't mean it's an independant state.

In fairness, Archaon just bypassed Kislev and AFAIK didn't manage to truly destroy any major city (I'm thinking of Praag).

Archaon destroyed Praag, as wel as Herig and the recently reconstructed city of Wolfenburg.
That's one major port and two provincial capitals. And that's not counting the various towns and forts that got sacked.
One and a half provinces got looted and pillaged and some WFRP texts mention that the north of the Empire may never truly recover.

I suppose the dwarf invasion of the high elf colonies during the war of vengeance could count too. Dwarf holds lost: 0, elf colonies permantly lost: all of them.

The eventual trackrecord heavily favours the dwarfs (0 holds lost, 0 high kings lost, 0 crowns lost vs unspecified # of cities, 1 phoenix king, 1 phoenix crown ), it did take them about 400 years, and it is never specified howmany colonies or cities of the elves were destroyed. We only know of 2, really (Tor Alessi and Athel Maraya).

It's not really fair to compare Elven colonies to Dwarf holds.
It would be more logical to compare the Elven home cities to the Dwarf holds and the Elven colonies to Dwarf mining outposts and trading towns.
I'm sure the High Elves (or even the Dark Elves) razed their fair share of those.

[The bearded one]

Aye, would just expect that the further up you go the social food chain the less likely the standard dwarf mating problem would be an issue (a problem I like to ignore entirely since the 3 for 1 is thing a really really dumb piece of background). As for the High King's first wife being dead, is there anything in dwarven conventions that would stop him from taking another?

well, that's where either an unwillingness to take a new wife comes in, or the 3:1 thing Plus he was seriously old by the end of the war, and elderly folk that could drop dead at any moment (and dwarfs retain their strength untill only a handful of years before they die) are not the greatest catch at a singles bar. There's any number of reasons for him not getting another son, or a new wife.

Define 'elven' and 'loss', a dark elf player my only real disappointment is that they put a hippie in charge instead of a Caledor III to keep the war going

If the dark elves hadn't invaded, I believe the high elves might've actually continued the war, at least for a while. They were planning a suicidal expedition against Karaz-A-Karak when the dark elves decided to invade, after all.

I disagree. An invasion is still an invasion whatever the cause of it.

I suppose, but there is a distinct difference between a planned invasion (which the others were) and the Ogres simply stumbling across the Sky Titans as they weakly made their way out of the Eastern Steppes after the destruction of their homeland. In addition, this war was almost entirely based upon hunger rather than the desire to malevolently destroy like an Orc invasion (although of course the Orcs presumably wouldn't mind a tasty bit of flesh too).

Edit: To enter by force in order to conquer or pillage.

That's the first dictionary definition I found online. It points very directly to deliberate intention of invasion.

On the other hand, the ogre "migration" and subsequent "invasion" of the skytitan homelands is reminiscent of the migration period in the 4th-5th century AD in Europe, leading to the barbarian invasions of peoples driven out of the east further towards western europe, such as the goths and vandals, who were driven out of the east by peoples such as the huns, slavs and alans. Just in case of the ogres it was not another people forcing them to migrate, but a 'natural disaster' (unless you count the maw as a cathayan attack).

It's not really fair to compare Elven colonies to Dwarf holds.
It would be more logical to compare the Elven home cities to the Dwarf holds and the Elven colonies to Dwarf mining outposts and trading towns.
I'm sure the High Elves (or even the Dark Elves) razed their fair share of those.

I actually think it is, to a certain degree. The elven colonies weren't small villages and towns, or mere outposts. They were large, fortified and very well established cities, which they didn't merely set up a hundred years or so before the war, but millenia before. It is noted that the high elves started arriving and building their colonies in the imperial year -4119. The war starts in -1997. Karaz-A-Karak was "newly founded" when Bel-Shanaar came to visit it in -2839. Some elven colonies are older than many dwarf holds as in the wake of driving out the remnants of chaos, the elves start building colonies (which early in Bel-Shanaar's reign already "prosper") in -4119, and at that same time the dwarfs are noted to begin "founding many new strongholds".

People are always under the assumption the colonies were just "colonies" like.. the American (British) colonies. But they were old, well-established cities, with foundations that many bretonnian (and some imperial, like marienburg) cities actually are built upon. They most likely rivalled some of the homecities on Ulthuan, which were also riven by war and natural disaster at the sundering.

Maybe uncharacteristic for a dwarf fan, but I think the high elf colonists had actually done an impressive job in the old world Tor Alessi was besieged 14 times, after all, before it was breached. And dwarfs are no slouches when it comes to sieges.

[woodster17]

It was part of the Empire ever since it got conquered millenia ago.
That people don't like to go there doesn't mean it's an independant state.

No chance that Karl Franz seriously bothers with or thinks he has any control over what goes on in Sylvania. Would be like the Ukrainian government taking a hands on approach to the daily goings on in Chernobyl. A little insensitive yes, but there are some areas, on some occasions, that prudence suggests not to bother with jurisdiction. Sylvania is definitely one of them. If Karl Franz ever tried to install a barony and re-populate and control Sylvania in terms of an armed forced, very bad things would happen.

On the other hand, the ogre "migration" and subsequent "invasion" of the skytitan homelands is reminiscent of the migration period in the 4th-5th century AD in Europe, leading to the barbarian invasions of peoples driven out of the east further towards western europe, such as the goths and vandals, who were driven out of the east by peoples such as the huns, slavs and alans. Just in case of the ogres it was not another people forcing them to migrate, but a 'natural disaster' (unless you count the maw as a cathayan attack).

This is all very true, but I still put the Ogres under 'coincidental migration and subsequent efficient destruction' as opposed to a 'successful invasion' but I see your point. I was being a little pedantic earlier in the thread. Doesn't matter how the Ogres got there, they did a hell of a job at genocide when they did.

[The bearded one]

No chance that Karl Franz seriously bothers with or thinks he has any control over what goes on in Sylvania. Would be like the Ukrainian government taking a hands on approach to the daily goings on in Chernobyl. A little insensitive yes, but there are some areas, on some occasions, that prudence suggests not to bother with jurisdiction. Sylvania is definitely one of them. If Karl Franz ever tried to install a barony and re-populate and control Sylvania in terms of an armed forced, very bad things would happen.

After the vampire wars, the count of stirland claimed Sylvania to become part of his province. Because noone really wanted this desolate piece of land, nobody opposed that claim. Sylvania is now officially part of stirland, but I doubt they really control it that much, or make any kind of attempt to do so. Stirland taxcollectors, which are reputedly brutal and forceful, only occasionally enter sylvania, and only with an armed guard of 50 or so men.

This is all very true, but I still put the Ogres under 'coincidental migration and subsequent efficient destruction' as opposed to a 'successful invasion' but I see your point. I was being a little pedantic earlier in the thread. Doesn't matter how the Ogres got there, they did a hell of a job at genocide when they did.

And while they didn't manage to kill them all, they managed to make them smaller, dumb inbreed ugly sons of..

now if that doesn't send a message not to mess with you, I don't know what will?

[Arnizipal]

No chance that Karl Franz seriously bothers with or thinks he has any control over what goes on in Sylvania. Would be like the Ukrainian government taking a hands on approach to the daily goings on in Chernobyl. A little insensitive yes, but there are some areas, on some occasions, that prudence suggests not to bother with jurisdiction. Sylvania is definitely one of them. If Karl Franz ever tried to install a barony and re-populate and control Sylvania in terms of an armed forced, very bad things would happen.

I think the Ukraine is in fact closely following up Chernobyl. What they do with the info they gather is another thing entirely, but if I had a leaking nuclear plant in my country I would sure as hell keep a close eye on it.

Note that at the current point in time (pre-Storm of Chaos) the Empire think they have effectively removed the vampire threat with the death of Mannfred von Carstein centuries ago. Stirland took control of Sylvania at the time and sent some unpopular/impoverished nobels over to run the place.
Sure it's not a great place to live, but if the Empire for a second suspected any threat from Sylvania they would send an army over rather swiftly.

[woodster17]

I think the Ukraine is in fact closely following up Chernobyl. What they do with the info they gather is another thing entirely, but if I had a leaking nuclear plant in my country I would sure as hell keep a close eye on it.

Note that at the current point in time (pre-Storm of Chaos) the Empire think they have effectively removed the vampire threat with the death of Mannfred von Carstein centuries ago. Stirland took control of Sylvania at the time and sent some unpopular/impoverished nobels over to run the place.
Sure it's not a great place to live, but if the Empire for a second suspected any threat from Sylvania they would send an army over rather swiftly.

Pretty sure they're more than happy to leave it alone. The Empire sure as hell don't want it, even if the Vampire threat were ever to be removed entirely it's not as if you could grow crops in that tainted soil. It's more posturing on Stirland's part to assume Sylvania in to its province. I'd be more than reasonably sure that nobody wants anything to do with it. If you were showing a visiting noble (or King) from say Bretonnia round the Empire you're not going to proudly present Sylvania as part of your territory are you? It's nomially part of The Empire simply because of the fact that it's there, but as we all know it certainly belongs to other masters.

[whatever]

We don't know if Mannfred von Carstein is dead looks like he is back Drakenhof castle from the recent books. The vampire counts get my vote for the most sucsessful invasion. Number of undead killed none number of empire citizens killed a lot.

[DieTodtenReitenSchnell]

Even if we consider Sylvania part of the Empire in 'contemporary' Warhammer, at the time of Vlad there was a clear distinction.

Either way, how are we defining "successful"?

[Drasanil]

Even if we consider Sylvania part of the Empire in 'contemporary' Warhammer, at the time of Vlad there was a clear distinction.

Actually it's the opposite I'm afraid, in modern times Sylvania is officially part of Stirland but the Elector doesn't effectively rule in practice. Where as Vlad up until his invasion was an imperial nobleman in relatively good standing and Sylvania a recognised province.

[The bearded one]

Actually it's the opposite I'm afraid, in modern times Sylvania is officially part of Stirland but the Elector doesn't effectively rule in practice. Where as Vlad up until his invasion was an imperial nobleman in relatively good standing and Sylvania a recognised province.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeexactly.

Before revealing he was a vampire (by raising millions of undead with one great ritual), Vlad posed as a nobleman for the better part of two hunderd years, and was the legitimate count and ruler of the province. He wasn't an elector count though, IIRC, which makes me wonder what the "legal status" of sylvania was when it was still an independant province before Stirland absorbed it.

[grumbaki]

Perhaps it was the warhammer equivalent of DC. Taxation without representation.

[Drasanil]

Perhaps it was the warhammer equivalent of DC. Taxation without representation.

Truth: the taxes are lower when the von Carsteins are in charge!

[grumbaki]

Well, that's the truth on how they took Sylvannia. They campaigned on lower taxes, and the peasants just didn't realize that they'd pay for it through budget cuts to social programs.

[Drasanil]

Good thing they never had social programs to start with. Great... now I'm tempted to make the grand army of Count Ronn von Paultz.

[grumbaki]

Good thing they never had social programs to start with. Great... now I'm tempted to make the grand army of Count Ronn von Paultz.

That would be so damned awesome. May I suggest that it be a small one, that maximizes on anything and everything with the "stubborn" special rule?