Sigur goes historical - The Thirty Years War

[Caiphas Cain]

I prefer the upper version, but yes, they look fine.

[sigur]

Thanks for the input, Caiphas Cain. It's really a miniscule problem and I might end up just mixing them but I like to have some input when it comes to things like these.

So with legions of single 10mm musketeers lying around on the desk at my right elbow, here's what I've been doing on the left side in the meantime:


They're still WIP of course. Need the faces and beards done, the sashes and the scabbards. And the bases of course. And I have no idea what to do with the command figures again, I really need to look up some units from Lützen and possible flags. I think that once these are finished I'll do the basing on the first bunch of miniatures, set the up on the table, maybe have a test game again to muster motivation. I'm feeling really bad for neglecting commission work in the past four days.


edit: Oh, after those guys I'll probably do pikemen for the famous Swedish Yellow Brigade!

[Crazy Harborc]

Well....I will be drooling over the photos in this thread. I will be staying in 25/28mm for my collection.

My usual opponents and I DID talk 15mm (smaller too) over. All our wives would be widows if we games started another scale.

[Satan]

Yay! Yellow Brigade! Musketeers look great, I tihnk I agree with the commissiar here...

[sigur]

@Crazy Harborc: Hey, thanks for dropping by. Yes, I know what you mean and 15mm scale is a constant temptation when it comes to TYW. Stay strong, buddy! Thanks for commenting on my P&S review on my blog/site as well and sending other people that way. Always appreciated.

@Satan: Thanks for the input. I did some more thinking/asking around/researching and...


... I think I will change musketeer units a bit. First, I will probably make each unit one 60x20mm base instead of two 40x20mm. On the other hand, this makes marching columns completely impossible apart from using markers. Darnit. Maybe three 20x20mm bases? That makes moving the units kind of clumsy and more time consuming though. Argh. Anyway, apart from that I may just mix the models in the units a bit, making only elite or commanded musketeers in the swedish army fire in ranks exclusively or something like that. It's bizarre because I usually don't have as much trouble deciding on colour schemes, poses and such with commissioned armies.

So apart from trying to decide on this thing, I finished painting the second imperial pike block:


Redid the faces and beards a little and such and I darkened the red sleeves. I wasn't happy with the look of the unit after the last update and I think that the darker red works much better. As always, the command models (which is a whopping three musicians, one random musketeer, an ensign and a sergeant with sword and buckler) are still WIP until I decided on the regiment.


...much less headache-inducing in this regard is this firstr unit of the Swedish Yellow Regiment:


You see, these guys take their colours seriously for once. As soon as I started applying yellow paint to these guys' uniforms I liked this unit. Due to the fact that I know exactly what regiment they're going with I also finished the command figures on this unit.

Hope you like it so far.


Hey, maybe it's time to post lists of what I have in mind for the armies I'm painting. It basically lacks every single commander's name, nor is it a complete order of battle of any historical battle. It's loosely based off the regiments that fought at Lützen in 1632.

Imperials

General (technically Wallenstein probably some day once the army is larger to warrant a "big man" leader)

First Batallion
Infantry Commander
1 unit of Swordsmen
1 unit of Pike
2 units of Musket

1 unit of Pike
2 units of Musket


Second Batallion
Infantry Commander

1 unit of Pike
2 units of Musket
1 attached Medium Gun


Third Battalion
Cavalry Commander (Pappenheim probably. As I said before - it's a bit of a niche period so no need to avoid the classically known figures)

3 units of Cuirassiers

Fourth Battalion
Cavalry Commander (Isolani?)
1 unit of Croat Irregulars

1 unit of Harquebusiers





Swedes and Saxon Allies

General (as with Wallenstein above, the obvious candidate would be Gustav II Adolph but the army's too tiny to actually have him in there)

First "Yellow" Batallion
Infantry Commander
1 unit of Swedish Elite Veteran Pike (Guard)
2 units of Swedish Veteran Musket
1 unit of Swedish Veteran Pike
3 units of Swedish Veteran Musket
1 attached Light Gun

Second Batallion
Saxon Infantry Commander
1 unit of Saxon Pike
2 units of Saxon Musket

Third Batallion
Cavalry Commander
2 units of light Cavalry
2 units of Finnish Cavalry
2 units of Dragoons

So this is the approximate list of units I plan to paint. 750 points per side. I do have a few units beyond that though. Some more units of Dragoons, tons more Cuirassiers, mounted Cossacks for the Imperials, one more light and medium gun each. Then of course there is the baggage trains. Most armies of the TYW were constantly on the move and going into battle with the enemy was often only the secondary reason. The sheer fact that the regions just weren't able to support the armies that set up camp for long. In many cases, especially as the war went on, they were like a swarm of locusts, only staying as long as a region would be able to sustain them and then move on, often with the fields trampled and burned and villages razed and plundered with little regard to what side the region currently belonged.

Along with the armies travelled whole vast numbers of various folks - mercenaries' families, craftsmen, herders, looters, merchants, gamblers, the whole officer's corps, extra horses, cattle and masses of various belongings. Of course this meant a large baggage train on each side for which I bought models (OF COURSE). Unfortunately there is little in the way of renaissance civilians available in 10mm but i got a fair amount of donkeys, oxen wagons and horse pulled ones, some baggage, some cattle and so on.

[sigur]

Interesting bit about the soft-hat pikemen. Same manufacturer as on the ones with the helmets, same bodies even so it's mostly the heads that were swapped. Nice faces and all but there are some problems with these as opposed as to the guys with the helmets: First, they don't come with command figures. The guys with the helmets did. Weird. I don't mind, I got tons of command units anyway but still, they could say so on the website.

The second, and more problematic thing, is that the poses of the models on the strips are a bit more dynamic or lively. As I said, it's the same bodies but the heads are tilted, chatting to the guy next to them and so on. Again, really nice stuff. However, it looks a bit weird in a unit if in every rank the rightguy and the guy beside him are having a chat while the others are looking straight forward. Everybody's wearing a hat except for the second guy from the left who wears a wooly hat. This basically means that I had to cut up all strips but two so I get them mostly as single pikemen or in some cases in pairs. then I'll have to glue the same five guys onto the bases in a varied enough fashion to make them look proper. Interesting additional work there. :S

[Easy E]

Regarding the Musketeer posing, if I'm not too late.

I thinkthe Swees should (obviously perhaps) be inthe Swedish style while the Imperials are in the Spanish syle.

[mrtn]

General (as with Wallenstein above, the obvious candidate would be Gustav II Adolph but the army's too tiny to actually have him in there)

The army's only tiny because you're not making it in 28 mm, of course you can have Gustav II Adolf (no ph btw) as a general.

[sigur]

@Easy E: Thanks for the input. I think I will mix it up a little, maybe with certain units, like the Swedish Yellow Regiment, I'll do the full "fire from two ranks" thing while it's more mixed for others.

@mrtn: Quiet, you!


Right, yesterday I arranged three units of pikemen with soft hats and four units of Cuirassiers (with one more to come). Because you never know wether or not something comes with command figures (musicians, ensign and Hauptmann of some kind) I of course got too few of those which means that I have to order some more minis (who would have thought? ) and convert a few as well.

Oh right, I have another question: After aving settled for 60x20mm bases for the musketeers now due to a suggestion by an advisor (who occasionally drops by to berate me on my small scale ) I'm now thinking of either doing one full 60x20mm base for each unit and try to use markers for when they are in marching column OR do I do three 20x20mm bases so I can rearrange the unit?

[mrtn]

Maybe two 30*20? That way they will have four ranks when marching. Or does that screw up something else?

[sigur]

Yar, good call. Started hacking my 60mm bases into two this noon. It's probably the best solution to the whole thing. On a different note - I ordered more miniatures.

[kublai]

Just listened to the Podcast, you have recommended, while painting. Thanks for mentioning this podcast Sigur, I probably would have never heard of it otherwise !

Oh and by the way, I really enjoy this thread, and caught myself fantasizing about doing a 10mm army too......... BUI I WILL RESIST

[jdp]

Goodness, I go away on vacation and come back to Sigur putting the hurt on a 10mm historical army. I like it!
Thirty years is a fun period for all the reasons you stated and it's nice to see it getting more recognition in gaming circles. P+S is a good rules system but I do have a weakness for any of the Warmaster varients out there.
With regard to the meat of this project, very nice work indeed S., your usual high standard for tens this army is coming along nicely. You definitely make me want to pull out my tens as well which could possibly side track two or three other projects but such is gaming...

[sigur]

@kublai: Hah, let's see how long this resistance lasts! I predict that you will fold once I post the first army shots! Seriously, thanks for commenting and I'm glad that you enjoy the M&M podcast. I found it by accident myself. Never listened to podcasts much before but some day I had no idea what to listen to whilst painting and felt like something new so I started looking for wargaming podcasts that are more general in nature than all the 40k ones. I pretty quickly read that M&M was considered the best by many so I gave it a try and since then listened to the podcast a lot. I hardly ever find a topic Neil talks about not interesting and most of the times I end up googling new miniatures or games or at least think "ooh, that sounds it might be fun". Made me look into a whole lot of different wargaming things aside from the GW/PPP/BF stuff.

@jdp: Thanks for commenting. Hope you enjoyed your vacation. For me P&S was just the thing I was looking for. I was looking to get into historicals (preferrably big battles, small scales, very "classic wargamey looking" if you will) and always wanted to try one of the numerous systems that were based on Warmaster. Very good experience and I get into the historicals community a bit more and start to understand the genre a bit better. I did historicals commission work before but I'm getting a much better look "from the inside" now. I only played this one tiny test game of P&S so far but aim to get to play a more proper game as soon as possible with proper 10mm models. If only I had more time...

Here's what I did today:


52 horses, eight empty spots to be filled by yet-to-come trumpeters, Rittmeisters and such. The worst thing is that the headgears of the horses aren't even finished yet, they're just basecoated black. Same goes for the manes and tails and of course I'll have to add socks and spots and various other things to the horses.

It's five units, two more than I had planned to do but you can never have enough Cuirassiers. Those guys surely were the most prestigeous of the units used in the TYW. Being heavy cavalry and, at least in the earlier phases of the war, wearing almost full plate armour that made them nearly bullet-proof at range they were the successors to the medieval knights and the only heavy shock formations used. They exchanged lances for two or more pistols and in several cases an addition harquebuse but mostly it was the cavalry sword that was the main weapon. Wallenstein's lifeguard famously are said to have kept their lances though. As with most units, the cuirassiers got rid of more and more of their armour over the course of the war because with the increased number of musketeers and at the same time improved quality of black powder weapons the armour became obsolete, however the cuirassier did not and numbers of cuirassier regiments in imperial service increased rapidly. The protestant side, especially the Swedes, had always been low on Cuirassier regiments and made up for this lack of heavy cavalry with the all-purpose light cavalryman.




These guys are looking just cool and are a very characterful addition to any pike&shot army. Medieval-looking heavy armour paired with pistols. They are the Space Marines of their time.

[Crazy Harborc]

Got my copy of Warlord Games Pike and Shotte Monday. Been reading here and there. Not up to cover to cover reading this quickly.

I WILL be buying MORE of those PM. WoTRs and WG. ECW minies. Heavier on the WGs minies. There IS a section on the 30 years War.

OH......I know the periods are too far apart etc. THAT said, I really LIKE the Perry minies AND the Warlord Games minies. Plastic, 28mm minies are what I want (easier to afford)

[sigur]

@Crazy Harborc: Ah, I hope you're enjoying the book then. I generally have a hard time just reading a rulebook from cover to cover and "get" it. Probably least so with P&S. With Tomorrow's war it was confusing with the reaction system and whatnot but there were enough toys to look at and think of how much fun that would be. P&S I think has to be played to really get into the ideas behind the system. Anyhow. What's PM in this context? :S By WoTRs I suppose you mean War of the Roses, WG ....Warlord Games? ECW is clear. Yup, quite a section on the 30 years war. By the way, have you read the history bit on the TYW in the P&S book? There are some glaring errors in there which I guess are mostly typos but still it's a bit weird. Oh yes, 28mm plastics are definately currently the hot thing to get. Finally available for all kinds of periods and they look really nice as well.


Right-o, update.



Two units of cuirassiers painted out of three I need to have and five I got available. I ran out of Trumpeters so I have to wait until these show up before I can go any further. I also found some nice stores for flags now. I know, it's kind of lame of me to get printed flags and not make them myself but it would take ages until I get them done. I got in contact with the flag people and once I got the flags I can finish the command figures and therefore units! At the moment motivation is a bit low to be honest because I got no unit completely finished yet and time is running by FAST. However, I'll manage to meet the first deadline for the Tale of Historical Gamers, woo!

[emperorpenguin]

What's PM in this context?


Two units of cuirassiers painted out of three I need to have and five I got available.

PM = Perry Miniatures?

Love your stuff Sigur, the horses are amazing, painting them always scares me but you've done such a brilliant job on them!

[Meraklis]

I have to say that I am really happy to see you turning to historicals and especially the pike&shot era! I have to say that I was hoping you would do 28mm but 10mm looks equally cool!

Keep up the good work! Looking forward to seeing more!

[kublai]

What do you use as your basing sand ? I would think textured paint from Vallejo or GW would be perfect for this scale. And no...... just asking out of curiosity

Can you say which flag manufacturer you are talking about ? How do you varnish your models ? I know, a lot of questions, but my slogan is live and learn

[Crazy Harborc]

emperorpenguin...got it right. PM...Perry Miniatures (I feeling lazy sooo I used first letters, initials)

I like Warlord Games rules....Pike and Shotte. I am a slow learner. I am only in the first 60-70 pages as of today. I will remember the warning about "some facts" that are well, a bit "off" the mark.

I almost wish I did not like those darn photos of the wee ones sized minies. WAY less money to field much bigger numbers of troops. But then, I am happy with 28mm.