Codex CSM

[Draconis]

You're totally right. The idea that a weapon could penetrate some types of armor but not others is ridiculous.

...that logic is a complete joke. I'm sorry but have you ever tried to break something? Take a knife and swing at a cucumber or some other small vegetable. Now take that knife and try to hack your way through a roast or turkey.

[KarlPedder]

People really need to get over this whole OMG Chaos Marines have been doing X for 10, 000 years!!!!!!! For one thing not every Chaos Marine around in M41 is from the HH also even those that are have spent large portions of time in the warp where time flows differently. Sure CSM X has been reaving through the galaxy for the last 10, 000 years but CSM Y might have been recruited before the crusades back on terra but due to warp travel and time spent in the eye of terror he has experienced only a coulple of hundred years.

Not to mention the Necrons could have been in their metal bodies for 10x that before they took their big nap. By the reasoning many Chaos players use a Necron Lord should be able to curb stomp any Chaos marine 10000 years pffft says the Overlord I was quelling a rebellion that went longer than that.....

[Draconis]

Re-read your books. Most of the marines that were around in m31 that are still around remember all 10,000 years. They are the veterans and the books specifically tell you they know exactly how much time has passed.

[IcedAnimals]

Those marines are well represented by you guessed it. Chosen. thin bloods are adequately represented by the default troop choice.

[Dangersaurus]

You're totally right. The idea that a weapon could penetrate some types of armor but not others is ridiculous.

You may have noticed that sarcasm flies right over the head of some folks 'round here.

[Draconis]

You may have noticed that sarcasm flies right over the head of some folks 'round here.

Lol, not quite, I just hit the wrong quote button, it was supposed to be the person he was referrencing.

[Flufflyrabbit]

but that would be (hushed tones now, the inquisition is listening) balance we don't need that for entertaining games now do we? the whole ap for ccw's is so badly broken it's not funny, ignores armour should be exactly that, not strike then hear "ahh you only cut 75% of the way in ********* HAHAAAA! CHOP!"

If you look at effects/purpose of those weapontypes in real life (including it being powerweapons which are meant to penetrate armour a bit better than normal CC weapons) you get the following:

- swords: main use of swords is to cut/sllice, capable of piercing targets but still meant to cut/slice - henche the 3AP
- axes: all the weight is centralized into 1 point. When swinging it, the weight allows you to cut better on impact into you target - henche +1S, 2AP
- maces: like axes it uses it's weight on impact but doesn't cut. Being a bludgeoning weapon you basicly use it to break your opponents bones/head, still capable to crack mediocre armor - henche +2S, 4AP.

Imo GW did a pretty good job applying more realisme into this game. So it's not badly broken or not funny. On the contrary it creates more depth into this game which is interesting like:

"Hmmm tough armour, well let's use an axe or a sword."
"pffft can't even wound that monster, I think I'm going to use a mace."

[smellyhippy]

This is off topic, but I honestly don't get what the problem is. Guns have variety of AP, why not melee weapons?
Missile launchers go right through power armor, but bounce off terminator armor. Plasma burns through both.
Power swords go right through power armor, but bounce off terminator armor. Power Axes cut through both. Is the problem both melee weapons start with the key word 'power'?

Prefixed by the word "power" is exactly the point, all power weapons from as far back as RT AFAIK "are sheathed in a power field no armour can withstand" so yes off topic as it is, the point still stands IMO (sorry mods, i'll be good...well less annoying than usual either way )

[smellyhippy]

More importantly you can't balance berzerkers properly if they're *the best* assault unit in the game. The reason? If you make them the best you have to set a relatively high point total. However, defensively they're only as good as marines. This makes them fragile for their points cost. However, a World Eaters legion would want to take either mostly or entirely Berzerks, but if they're really fragile from shooting that would make that army untenable.

Thus they should be good, but not the best.

As a side note, as a Blood Angels player I'm pretty satisfied having Death Company with a Chaplain being the best assault unit in the game : )

hmmn really, is it an old build, or spanking new models i wonder? :P

[Scammel]

Chaos is the eternal enemy, because it will exist as long as men are flawed. But their reach is limited.

Asides from splitting a fledging Imperium in two and being responsible for crippling the Emperor and the state of the setting as it is now. Nothing will ever pose as big a threat as Chaos has done because, well, it's pretty much impossible. There's also the fact that Chaos is described as 'The Greatest Threat' in the BRB itself. I apologise for contradicting you, but you're very wrong.

[smellyhippy]

Lol, not quite, I just hit the wrong quote button, it was supposed to be the person he was referrencing.

lol yes i see the sarcasm fail, i'd thought i'd mentioned power weapons specifically in my post, not just standard ccw's and made the same error reading his answer. so if you add the power prefix, as i had mentally spooged in there whilst reading, it supports the point i was making "eats through armour and bone with ease" (my other quote i believe is from 2nd ed..but it has been a while since reading that book if i'm an ed or so out) so IMO it shouldn't be gradated to allow those precious precious loyalist termies to survive even more than usual.....ok mods i'll take my knuckle rap now

[smellyhippy]

so am i right in thinking poor old fabius still has to go into harms way minus an inv save? i've only seen one mention of that so far & a bunch of "just make him a unit upgrade" type posts, it'd be a shame if he's only destined to gather dust on the shelf again this dex

[Darth Meer]

Re-read your books. Most of the marines that were around in m31 that are still around remember all 10,000 years. They are the veterans and the books specifically tell you they know exactly how much time has passed.

Actually most of the marines from back in 30k feel like its only been around 300 years since the scouring due to the time-screwing properties of being in the Eye. Read ADBs Night Lords series :-D. So there are actually loyal marines around in 40k that are more 'veteran'.

[ihavetoomuchminis]

We all know that in the warp all things tend to favour loyal marines.

[Excessus]

The warp flows both ways...there should be recent renegade marines that has been fighting in the warp for 10k years as well...

Besides, most marines already had quite a few years in the service even before the heresy, then plus the heresy, the scouring, and any and all time they have spent out of the warp...it adds up, maybe not quite 10k years, but remember that Dante is an extremely old loyalist with his 1,1k years or whatever the young one has...in comparison even at 3k years a legionnaire would be a veteran with immeasurable skills...

[Adra]

If time passes in strange ways in the warp, thus making 10'000 year old marines think only 300 years has gone by, surly then the opposite is true that they could have experienced 40'000 years in only 10'000. Basically chaos marines are made of many levels of experience and none of it can really be tied to the true time they have spent warping it up. Hell a new chaos marine could step into the eye and come out a year later having experienced 1'000 years and be a pretty awesome kick ass veteran, but conversely a chaos marine who fought at the heresy could have run into the eye and stepped out again 10'000 years later with almost no recognition of time past. saying that chaos marines are all veterans or all not because of the strange warp times is really daft because...well...the warp isn't a constant and cant be used as a foundation for a consistent argument :P

[Embergem]

If you look at effects/purpose of those weapontypes in real life (including it being powerweapons which are meant to penetrate armour a bit better than normal CC weapons) you get the following:

- swords: main use of swords is to cut/sllice, capable of piercing targets but still meant to cut/slice - henche the 3AP
- axes: all the weight is centralized into 1 point. When swinging it, the weight allows you to cut better on impact into you target - henche +1S, 2AP
- maces: like axes it uses it's weight on impact but doesn't cut. Being a bludgeoning weapon you basicly use it to break your opponents bones/head, still capable to crack mediocre armor - henche +2S, 4AP.

Imo GW did a pretty good job applying more realisme into this game. So it's not badly broken or not funny. On the contrary it creates more depth into this game which is interesting like:

"Hmmm tough armour, well let's use an axe or a sword."
"pffft can't even wound that monster, I think I'm going to use a mace."

The funny thing is that, in real life, if you were to go up against someone with good armour, a mace would be your go-to-weapon. Nothing beats armour like a good ol' mace. Except for a hammer, but now we are just nitpicking.

[The Dude]

Okay. This thread seems to have taken a nose-dive. If something else comes up, I'm sure a new thread will appear.

Thread closed.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition