Phoenix Lords Gestalt

[Lord Zarkov]

From the Eldar Rumour thread:

This belongs in the background section, but a Phoenix Lord is not an exarch. An exarch is a gestalt consciousness occupying a specific set of armour, when a new Exarch dons the armour their consciousness is added to the others. A Phoenix Lord is a single immortal, consciousness that can be revived by another soul donning their armour but that person soul does not enter into a gestalt entity but is annihilated as far as we know. Every Aspect Shrine is a Shrine to that Aspects Phoenix Lord, and many of the Phoenix Lords are known to travel from shrine to shrine.


A rumoured release date was wrong, so the natural conclusion is management malovolence, incompetence and conflict between the design studios and corporate leadership. The fact a rumoured daemon wave is rumoured to be released in August doesn't seem to factor into it.

Actually with a Phoenix Lord new souls inducted by reviving the Phoenix Lord do enter a gestalt and the Phoenix Lord has access to all their memories and experiences. However, unlike normal Exarchs where the newest soul is in charge in a kind of 'first among equals' manner, in a Phoenix Lord the original personality is so strong that it dominates and subsumes later ones - there souls and experiences are still added to the gestalt though, as is made very clear in the two stories in which this happens (interestingly both by Gav and both involving Kharandras).
It might well be that any Exarch of suitably strong will who's initial incarnation survives for long enough might be able to become a Phoenix Lord, although probably not of the power of the Asuryra.
(Also as an aside, an Exarch is anyone stuck on the Path of the Warrior, which Phoenix Lords definitely are, any Exarch who is the first in his suit wouldn't be a gestalt either)

On Topic:

I do hope the Xentarchs are shrine-less Exarchs - it'll be cool to have other units led by Exarchs with the funky Exarch equipment - and it gives a use for all the leftover Exarchs when you have one for every weapon combination.

That is an incorrect interpretation:

He felt nothing of the warrior he had been. There were no memories, save his own. There was no spirit, save the one he had been born with. He

was Karandras, and Karandras alone.

From WD236

Sirech realised that he could no longer discern which of the memories were his, and which belonged to others. A voice spoke to him then, soothing away his fears.

"Welcome, Exarch Sirech. With your essence, we shall live on"

Sirech felt the last vestiges of his true self dissappearing, and he felt like screaming, both in fear and joy.

Karandras opened his eyes and looked at the husk of the Exarch lying next to him. As he stood up, the Phoenix Lord's armour began to heal, the tears across his body closed up and sealed without a trace. Looking around the shrine, he recognised where he was from the memories of Sirech. Reaching into those same memories, he remembered where the Dome of the Crystal Seers could be found, and strode from the shrine, intent on warning the Farseers of the peril that lay ahead.

So Phoenix Lords do maintain all the memories from Eldar they've absorbed - I would read the passage from Path of the Warrior as reinforcing out that there is just one gestalt and that is has one over-riding spirit (unlike regular Exarchs who are almost a committee) - the memories, wherever they came from, are those of Karandras, as there is but one entity that is Karandras, with all its components submerged into the whole.

[eldargal]

The passage I quoted is quite explicit, there is also a reference in Path of the Seer to Thirianna sensing the complete loss of Korlandril. I would suggest that it is a retcon, pure and simple. WD 236 was published in 1999, Path of the Warrior in 2010 and Path of the Seer in 2011.

To reconcile to the two accounts I would suggest it would be more fitting to assume that perhaps a few of the last hosts more recent memories are maintained to help orient the Phoenox Lord. I do not feel an argument can be made, given the explicit nature of the statement in Path of the Warrior, that the Phoenix Lords are gestalt entities.

I have no objectionto a Phoenix Lord being a gestalt entity, indeed I would prefer it (it would add to the poignant nature of Korlandrils end in my view) but I just don't feel the evidence is there any longer. When older fluff is directly contradicted by later fluff it is nothing less than a retcon.

[gitburna]

My interpretation - While Karandras can "remember" events from his reanimating spirit, the soul which occupies/reanimates the suit loses all personality, it is entirely subsumed into the greater consciousness of Karandras and no longer has "self".

I suppose like the Hive Mind, or the "vortex" idea in regards to the Chaos powers.

[Erazmus_M_Wattle]

Well Gav's books are black library so they don't really count as canon. It's not like the books are checked by the studio in the same way that studio documents are. The one possible exception being the HH series.

[Austinitor]

The passage I quoted is quite explicit, there is also a reference in Path of the Seer to Thirianna sensing the complete loss of Korlandril. I would suggest that it is a retcon, pure and simple. WD 236 was published in 1999, Path of the Warrior in 2010 and Path of the Seer in 2011.

To reconcile to the two accounts I would suggest it would be more fitting to assume that perhaps a few of the last hosts more recent memories are maintained to help orient the Phoenox Lord. I do not feel an argument can be made, given the explicit nature of the statement in Path of the Warrior, that the Phoenix Lords are gestalt entities.

I have no objection to a Phoenix Lord being a gestalt entity, indeed I would prefer it (it would add to the poignant nature of Korlandrils end in my view) but I just don't feel the evidence is there any longer. When older fluff is directly contradicted by later fluff it is nothing less than a retcon.

I do largely agree with this. My recollection of the novel is that there was one fleeting instance of recollection of past self in the new Karandras (which I tend to recall spurred some specific action), but no more (though given the placement in the text, the lack of further recollection may be circumstantial).

[TheDungen]

like the chaos gods themselves actually although they only absorb parts of a psyche not the entirety.


As for the phoenix lords i'd say that the new soul is dominated by the older one at first but then slowly incorporated in it during that lifetime f the phoenix lord. He cna propably acess the memories immideatly should he need to but they wont be as his own until later. So both statements could be right. He "was Karandras, and Karandras alone." at that moment, but was Karandras the first person to wear the suit or the first person to wear the suit plus everyone else. A soul mad eup from the unity of thousands of souls over thousands of years will be so much greater than the single one he just consumed that unless he actively seeks those memories its doubtful he will recall them any time soon if ever, not because they're gone but because of the sheer amount of memories he has.

[Poseidal]

Both were written by Gav T. if I recall correctly.

The statement in Path of the Warrior doesn't imply he forgot what happened (directly). But who he is is Karandras, and that is who he is. If Karandras is a galaxy, the Exarch was just a star (and the individuals of the Exarch just part of that star). Basically those things are small compared to the entire entity of Karandras. I think there was something similar to the WD excerpt and a passage in Path of the Warrior, but it has been a while since I read either.

[eldargal]

That is not accurate, GW consider anything with an official 40k logo to be 'canon'. I'm not pleased about it, it means some of Gotos godawful stuff is canon but this is the official line. It is written rom an in-universe perspective so many not strictly speaking be accurate, but it is canon.

Well Gav's books are black library so they don't really count as canon. It's not like the books are checked by the studio in the same way that studio documents are. The one possible exception being the HH series.

The quote from Path of the Warrior is quite explicit, no memories, no spirit save the one he was born with. As I said, if I had to reconcile the two accounts I would argue it is more consistent that the PL retains a few memories to help orient them. No other personalities/spirits present. No gestalt entity.

[Poseidal]

If anyone is interested, here is an older thread on the subject of Exarchs & Phoenix Lords

The quote from Path of the Warrior is quite explicit, no memories, no spirit save the one he was born with.

Who is he? As in, who is Karandras now, the galaxy of Exarch souls?

[eldargal]

Karandras is the original personality, the eldar who became a disciple of Asuryan and Arhra. A Phoenix Lord is an ancient Exarch, but not a gestalt entity. If some memories are retained, whether permanently or temporarily, there are no other spirits there. Just the original. That is my interpretation, if we assume the WD reference is not just retconned out of existence. Even the WD entry makes reference to the 'true self' of the exarch dissapearing. This could be taken to mean being absorbed into the gestalt consciousness, but given the later PotW reference it could also mean the final loss of that personality to be replaced by Karandras' alone.

[H3L!X]

If the souls would be consumed by a PxL, wouldn't that destroy the Exarch? The suit of "Korlandril" would be emty then and the Shrine would no longer exist, because there is no suit for an Exarch!

[Lord Zarkov]

I think it's clear that the personality of the absorbed Eldar is gone, both the WD extract and POTW are explicit about that ("Sirech felt the last vestiges of his true self disappearing," "There was no spirit save the one he was born with.", etc), there is only the one Phoenix Lord which has held the same personality for 10,000 years.

The question is what happens to the memories. The WD extract is clear that the Phoenix Lord (in this case 'Karandras') maintains all the memories from all those that have revived him. This is shown both in the last two lines from the piece, plus a bit just before the section I quoted.

Sirech saw his own memories being added to the psyche of the Shadow Hunter, from his first battle on Durya to the sight of his own arm reaching down towards himself.

Emphasis mine.
This also shows how Sirech is already being subsumed within Karandras - that last memory comes from the being that was Sirech, but he already subconsciously identifies Karandras as 'himself', before he's told what's going on.

I have to go now for a bit, so will continue this post later.

[eldargal]

I've wondered that myself. Perhaps the exarch suit will simply remain dormant until an Aspect warrior dons it again, becoming the first personality in what will become a new gestalt entity.

Edit: If the personality is gone even if memories are retained I do not consider that to be a gestelt entity.

[Lord Zarkov]

I've wondered that myself. Perhaps the exarch suit will simply remain dormant until an Aspect warrior dons it again, becoming the first personality in what will become a new gestalt entity.

I think this is probably the most likely - after all all the suits must have had a first warrior originally. Now a Craftworld might be a bit stuffed if there's only one Exarch of that Aspect and he gets absorbed (no one to train new recruits), but perhaps the Phoenix Lord will stick around for a bit until a new Exarch emerges?

Edit: If the personality is gone even if memories are retained I do not consider that to be a gestelt entity.

Ok, so our definitions differ.

Edit:
It may not be a proper gestalt, but I think it's the best word to describe what goes on. While the other personalities are gone, memories seem to be still there (but now as part of the singular Phoenix Lord), and the soul-essence is presumably what is used to mend damage and (re)animate the suit. (Perhaps it's sort of 'burnt off' and that's why the personality goes?)
I guess it's sort of like an Avatar (which isn't at all gestalt, but hasn't ever been described to have memories of the Young Kings (although it does collect spirit stones)) - the soul is sort of boiled down to power the being.

[eldargal]

Well my definition is based on a comparison with the exarch. A regular exarch is composed of many personalities, each of which can offer their opinions or change the priorities of the exarch as a whole (Korlandril persuading the whole to intervene on behalf of Thirianna for example). There are more than just memories there, there are many consciousnesses and personalities enmeshed in a whole. In contrast the Phoenix Lord has one mind, one personality, one overriding will.

[TheDungen]

It might affect the personality of the phoenix lord but i doubt one more soul will change it very much. its like holding a candle in front of the sun. While physics teach us that the candle does affect the sun the sun affects the candle a lot more.

[Lord Zarkov]

Well my definition is based on a comparison with the exarch. A regular exarch is composed of many personalities, each of which can offer their opinions or change the priorities of the exarch as a whole (Korlandril persuading the whole to intervene on behalf of Thirianna for example). There are more than just memories there, there are many consciousnesses and personalities enmeshed in a whole. In contrast the Phoenix Lord has one mind, one personality, one overriding will.

That's true, they are quite different from the usual Exarch 'personality-by-committee' thing - but then compare them with the Emperor of Man who has been described as a gestalt. True at the current point in time he's shattered into many independent personalities, but up until he was broken by Horus and left to rot for 10 millennia, he operated under one single mind, will and personality.

[Fen]

I think the best way to think about phoenix lords is to look at how the dark eldars keep going.

Their souls are burned a bit every day,and they repower by eating new ones.They don't get anything from it but the "fuel" to keep going

A dead phoenix lord might work the same way,a husk with a spent soul trapped inside soulstones,trying to ignite again.It does so by eating the first "worthy" eldar soul that happens to come by.No exchange or anything,just the need of a new kickstart

[Inquisitor Engel]

It's not like the books are checked by the studio in the same way that studio documents are. The one possible exception being the HH series.

Depends on the content of the book, books about new events with new characters are only read for basic understanding of the universe. Use an existing event, setting or character and scrutiny increases tenfold. Gav WAS the Eldar for a long, long time. It's safe to assume that if he retconned the Eldar stuff, it's probably a thought out (and not inadvertent) retcon.

[El_Machinae]

So, does the quality of the consumed soul matter? Would the Phoenix Lord become increasingly powerful in the Exarchs were themselves exceptionally skilled or potent?