Phoenix Lords Gestalt

[TheDungen]

If they're gestalt then their skills and memories will live on in him. After a while he probably know most tricks they do but he might learn something new from some of them

[Hendarion]

Well, eldargal's quote is pretty clear about that. No gestalt. No memories. That is a clear contradiction to older fluff, but Gav will have had a reason to change it, although I cannot see which reason that could have been and neither do I like it. But that's how he changed it to be, so we gotta accept it.

[TheDungen]

As long as the current is that their memories remain i'm satisfied i support gav in his decision (I usually do).

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

but Gav will have had a reason to change it, although I cannot see which reason that could have been

My guess would be to make it clear that the Phoenix Lords are distinct personalities and although they might effectively leech the lifeforce from another Eldar and use it to power the suit the Phoenix Lord doesn't change because of that. So basically it reinforces the basic character and personality of the Phoenix Lord and makes them "unchangable".

[Inquisitor Engel]

My guess would be to make it clear that the Phoenix Lords are distinct personalities and although they might effectively leech the lifeforce from another Eldar and use it to power the suit the Phoenix Lord doesn't change because of that. So basically it reinforces the basic character and personality of the Phoenix Lord and makes them "unchangable".

It also makes them markedly different from any kind of wraith-technology and a little dark and twisted, using Eldar souls to power themselves, ending that Eldar's existence in its entirety. No Infinity Circuit, not Wraithguard... nothing.

It's the same concept as wraith units, the spirit of an Eldar powering a something, but in this case, the power source is destroyed, rather than in control.

[Leonathion]

It also makes them markedly different from any kind of wraith-technology and a little dark and twisted, using Eldar souls to power themselves, ending that Eldar's existence in its entirety. No Infinity Circuit, not Wraithguard... nothing.

It's the same concept as wraith units, the spirit of an Eldar powering a something, but in this case, the power source is destroyed, rather than in control.

This concept has also been used in the wakening of the Avatar of Khaine. The young king who is sacrificed is annihilated in order to power the Avatar. I like it a lot.

[Chem-Dog]

If the personality is gone even if memories are retained I do not consider that to be a gestelt entity.

This depends entirely upon how you define "gestalt". For what it's worth I'm with you, the entities that rejuvenate/resurrect a Phoenix are not included in the decision making processes of the Phoenix from then on although any knowledge they might add to the Phoenix's pool may be used.
I quite like the idea that a glimmer of a specific individual might allow the Phoenix to triumph where otherwise it would have failed, or that the renewed Phoenix might regard something it had never considered with new appreciation or understanding thanks to the knowledge gained by the sacrificed Exarch's memories.

[Lord Zarkov]

So, does the quality of the consumed soul matter? Would the Phoenix Lord become increasingly powerful in the Exarchs were themselves exceptionally skilled or potent?

It's never been stated, although it seems all Eldar can revive a Phoenix Lord it seems Karandras at least seems to prefer Exarchs - whether that's for mercy's sake (because Exarchs are trapped on the Path of the Warrior) or if there's some concrete benefit in it (perhaps it makes them revive quicker?) is unknown.

With regards to memories, the parallel with the Avatar if they get completely destroyed is nice, but I tend to agree with Chem-Dog that the nice glimmer of use from the memories is good.

I think also that the POTW statement, while crystal on the point of personality, can be taken as a poetic 'all the memories are now those of Karandras' thing in the same way as Rebirth does explicitly, although that's mainly as I have a tendency to try and marry together potentially conflicting fluff so as not to throw away the old if at all possible.

[Fen]

This concept has also been used in the wakening of the Avatar of Khaine. The young king who is sacrificed is annihilated in order to power the Avatar. I like it a lot.

You could think that ages being trapped into the warrior's path has taken them so close to Khaine that their spirits now work the same way his does

[Biellan]

Now, this can be disregarded as crap (I am kinda drunk, last night of 7 months backpacking around (parts of) the world) but I always imagined an Exarch to be a gestalt consciousness made up of the previous consciousnesses but after a certain (read as required by fluff) amount of time the latest consciousnesses were subsumed by the dominant (first) consciousness which is why Korlandril came to the aid of the Farseer in Path of the Warrior/Seer because it was closer to his falling to the Path of the Warrior than another Eldar's fall, also the familiarity and such. Whereas a Phoenix Lord is such an old Exarch that any new consciousness that is added to the 'pool of experience' that resides within the spirit stones is almost instantly completely consumed by the existing Exarch/Phoenix Lord so he can access the experience of the Exarch/Aspect Warrior/generic Eldar and know exactly the current situation, current foes and current state of the galaxy (to a certain extent, c.f. Irillyth)

now if that makes no sense, blame alcohol!

[MvS]

I also am a fan of the idea that whereas the only personality is that of the original Phoenix Lord, memories/experience that pertain to combat are added to the whole. Without this, the Phoenix Lords would simply be the first warriors of their particular Shrine and not necessarily any greater than any other long lived Eldar warrior who trains every day.

If every time a new soul is added to an Exarch or Phoenix Lord, that Exarch/Phoenix Lord gains more more battle experience from the new soul, but otherwise retains his or her original identity, this would allow for the Phoenix Lords to truly become the demigods they are regarded as being - a bit like minor Avatars, but with their own personalities and inclinations, and 10 millennia of very diverse battle-experience.

I don't know, but I would imagine that GavT was trying to emphasise the uniqueness of the Phoenix Lords as strong identifiable individuals rather than 'spooky' gestalt many-minds who are tricky to write about in a fashion that readers can relate to.

[Poseidal]

That's how I see it as well. I think the emphasis is that the 'individual' of the Exarch (who was also the original name and identity) is dissolved in the greater collection that is Karandras; in the way Eldar change can change a lot going from path to path or becoming an Exarch, it isn't odd that all the experiences are regarded as those of 'Karandras' because that is who he is now, which is under the original personality.

[BooTMGSG]

Not-Korlandril was but an atom in the star of Morlaniath, and Morlaniath nothing but a star in the whole galaxy that was Karandras.

vs

He felt nothing of the warrior he had been. There were no memories, save his own. There was no spirit, save the one he had been born with. He was Karandras, and Karandras alone.

The First is earlier in the same chapter and perhaps captures the Pheonix lord best.
The consumed souls are still there. They are not cast in the warp or as far as I could decern destroyed. There is mention of the individual exarch personalities being broken up and absorbed into Karandras.

I think the first quote gives us the significance of the Exarch's presence in Karandras. They are there.

However, it is of the same significance as saying their is an atom of hydrogen in our sun, when looking at the milkyway. Its technically true, but from that perspective is nothing.

The addition of one atom of hydrogen makes no noticible change to the galaxy, if the galaxy were sentient it would not notice the addition anymore than we would notice the addition of a glycine molecule to a peptide chain within your body.

Every part of this galaxy is driven buy Karandras' will, and when he says he is Karandras, and Karandras alone. It may not be technically true, because of the 10^-250% that is the new addition. In all practical terms it is true. From Karandras point of view it is definitely true.

[MvS]

Very nice analogy. Thanks for that!