Terrorgheist Death Shriek

[jindianajonz]

See, my objection is slightly more fundamental than that, though. Given that WFB is a permissive ruleset (where, if it doesn't say you can do it, you can't), where is the rule that lets you shriek into combat? You have a rule that lets you shriek if the TG is in combat, but nothing else.

The fact that you are allowed to use it is the permission. I agree with your statement regarding permissive rule sets (if the book doesn't specifically say you can do something, then you can't). But the thing is, the Vampire Book specifically says you can attack an enemy unit (Page48, Death Shreik rule: "A Death Shriek is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if the Terrorgheist has marched, charged, or is engaged in close combat"). What is missing is a restriction that states it cannot attack an enemy unit that is in combat, and since there is no restriction, we are allowed to exercise "enemy unit" as broadly as we want (following the rest of the limitations in the Death Shriek rules and unusual attack rules, of course).

To interpret otherwise would be similar to saying a unit of archers could not fire on a unit that is Stubborn because the rules never specifically state that Stubborn units can be shot at. Of course the rules don't state that! If they had to list every situation where something was allowed, the book would be thousands of pages long! Instead, we get a blanket permissiveness; we assume that when the shooting rules say you can shoot at an enemy unit, you can shoot at any enemy unit (barring restrictions, which in the case of shooting includes not being able to shoot into close combat). Likewise, Death Shriek says you can shoot at an enemy unit, we assume that it can be any unit (Also barring restrictions, which in the case of unusual attacks, do not have any firing into close combat restriction). Incidentally Gorblud, could you please point me to the section of the rulebook that states Resolving Unusual Attacks only follow the last few steps of the shooting phase? I couldn't find it in my cursory examination of the rulebook, so I'm just going off what you said.

That said, I do think this rule is broken and should be FAQed. With VC's access to numerous tarpit units, it seems easy and unfair to trap a large unit in combat and then just shriek them down. But even if they do FAQ it, that doesn't mean Gorblud is wrong in his interpretation- there are many times (I saw T10 name one the other day) where GW makes a ruling that quite clearly violates what is stated in a rulebook. I guess it's easier (and saves GW a bit of face) to FAQ things rather than Errata them.

EDIT: If you disagree with this, then please clearly point out which rule is being violated. Saying that other ranged special attacks are not allowed is not an argument, because I'm pretty sure all these other attacks state that this particular attack cannot be fired into close combat, which obviously doesn't apply to Death Shriek.

[Maoriboy007]

That said, I do think this rule is broken and should be FAQed. With VC's access to numerous tarpit units, it seems easy and unfair to trap a large unit in combat and then just shriek them down.

I'm not sure I'd agree on that. In 7th perhaps with the regen banner and the helm, but I don't think thats the case in 8th, unstable units aren't as good as being tarpits as say steadfast units are, especially with crappy weaponskill. I'd say if you are being tarpitted by undead units for any period of time then the damage has been done and you are already in dire straits.
Is the scream really much worse than warmachines like say cannons or even stonethrowers? Which get to punish you from quite a safe distance without having to maneuver to the close range the shreik requires. If the scream can't be used in combat then it comes with an extremely small window of oppourtunity before having to commit the terrogeist to a combat wether you want to or not just to get any use out of the thing. And then you have to take into account that its not a particularly cheap option for a shooting phase nor is the terrorgeist a particularly close combat monster.

But even if they do FAQ it, that doesn't mean Gorblud is wrong in his interpretation- there are many times (I saw T10 name one the other day) where GW makes a ruling that quite clearly violates what is stated in a rulebook. I guess it's easier (and saves GW a bit of face) to FAQ things rather than Errata them.

Ha! amen to that But an FaQ is clearly required as the Deathshreik and Ghostly Howl are the only ranged attack Vampires have outside of magic and its a fairly important ruling that clarifies both attacks.

[jindianajonz]

Ha! amen to that But an FaQ is clearly required as the Deathshreik and Ghostly Howl are the only ranged attack Vampires have outside of magic and its a fairly important ruling that clarifies both attacks.

"VC FAQ:
Q: Can Death Shriek or Ghostly Howl be used on a unit in combat? The rules state that it can be cast on a single enemy unit, but never states whether that unit has to be out of combat
A: Yes, it can. However, we really meant this can only be used against a single unit in the entire game. And that unit is... oh, lets say Warhawk Riders."

[Sexiest_hero]

I disagree, then we get into the whole when can't it shoot. They gave us the, It can shoot into a combat it is in, so they were adding in "other than normal" shooting. Shoot into combats it's not in would have been added, as there have never been assumed to be able, special attack. Do it if you feel you must. Id never try it on anybody, as I value their fun and friendship too much.

[jindianajonz]

Sexiest_hero,
Yes, they do say that it may shoot into combat it is in. But this in no way means that it cannot shoot into a combat that it is not part of. What you are saying is "Well, the writers said one thing, but they REALLY meant this other thing." But another valid argument would be: GW is so careful to state in most other special attacks in the game that they cannot be fired into close combat, so by purposely omitting that wording here, they are clearly allowing this attack to be fired into close combat. If everyone went by what they felt the writers really meant to say rather than what is written, the game would probably fall apart.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that this writing is probably an oversight and should/will be corrected with an FAQ. But until that happens, the way the rule is written, this attack can be used in close combat. Again, if you have a good argument as to why it is not, please point out the page in the rulebook that states this. In the mean time, all I can see is the Death Shriek's wording that states it can be used on any enemy unit in range, regardless of whether or not it is in combat.

[gorblud]

Resolving Unusual Attacks is in a box on page 42 in the big book, where step 4 (roll to wound) in shooting begins.

Great analysis and explanation of the rules jnidiajonz.

Like I said, I'm well aware that it may be FAQ'd to forbid screaming into combat, but until then, it is legal.

[Maoriboy007]

"VC FAQ:
Q: Can Death Shriek or Ghostly Howl be used on a unit in combat? The rules state that it can be cast on a single enemy unit, but never states whether that unit has to be out of combat
A: Yes, it can. However, we really meant this can only be used against a single unit in the entire game. And that unit is... oh, lets say Warhawk Riders."

Better start checking spell and magical item descriptions then, if only a single unit can be affected by mindrazor of flaming cage in the whole game for example, that would be awesome.

[Shadowfane]

To be fair, I generally don't have a fixed position when it comes to rules arguements, as i generally enter into them because I feel like playing Devil's advocate.

But in this case, it being able to scream into combat, whilst likely to get FAQ'd in the future, isn't a huge problem, mostly due to the fact that the TG is so ridiculously easy to get rid of that you shouldnt be taking all that many shrieks anyway

[Askari]

But in this case, it being able to scream into combat, whilst likely to get FAQ'd in the future, isn't a huge problem, mostly due to the fact that the TG is so ridiculously easy to get rid of that you shouldnt be taking all that many shrieks anyway

Yeah, just like Dragons, you just look at them and they die

[Durpp]

... whilst likely to get FAQ'd in the future, isn't a huge problem, mostly due to the fact that the TG is so ridiculously easy to get rid of

I play WoC and it's damn hard to do! My main opponent is VC who loooovess these things and they consistently wipe out two units of knights a game. Even without having the ability to lock with zombies and then shriek into combat.

[gorblud]

Keep the knights close to eachother, protecting eachothers flanks. and charge the terrorgheist asap, there's not much it can do once in close combat, especially against enemies it cannot thunderstomp.

[Durpp]

Doesn't help much when your opponent isn't completely stupid and just fly to the flanks. Haha, hoping to get some better defense against these things in the new book.

[DragonArmy]

I agree that you cannot shoot into close combat.

Shooting into combat is so unusual because games workshop makes clear that even though units are touching, actually they tell us we should picture a swirling wild combat going on.

It also, does not say, you can't target your own units. Should you be able to attack your own units too?

The problem is that games like Magic The Gathering encourage elegantly simple rules to interact to create complex situations where evidence must be shown that you can't do something . Warhammer, on the other hand, is written as to say if it doesn't make sense fluff wise, the burden of proof is to show it is allowed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gorblud]

Durpp, that's why I said they should protect eachothers flanks. Too bad it doesn't seem work for you.

Dragonarmy, that's why it'is odd that it would possible to scream into a combat the terrorgheist is a part of, but not others. They are still swirling around and it should be just as hard to hit enemies instead of friends. If there is another friendly unit in the same combat of course.

Note that the scream is not a shooting attack, that's why it can target units engaged in combat in the first place.

[Fruhauf]

For the record, do you get BSB re-rolls and inspiring presence from the scream? I'm unsure as it's not a leadership test, its wounds scored based on 2d6 + remaining wounds...

[Durpp]

You're always going to have a flank, when the opponent is fielding 2+ of these things it gets tricky to avoid them. Best I've come up with so far is placing Marauder horsemen at odd angels away from my knights so they can't land within 8". Otherwise they'll just fly over, behind me, or to one of my knight's flanks. You always have a flank unless on a table edge, or another unit is guarding it, which then has a flank of its own. Unless there is some weird positioning I don't know about... If so, I'd love to know of it (not sarcasm, though it may seem like it.).

[Durpp]

For the record, do you get BSB re-rolls and inspiring presence from the scream? I'm unsure as it's not a leadership test, its wounds scored based on 2d6 + remaining wounds...

It's not a LD test. It's a comparison. So you don't get to do anything about it. VC player rolls dice and your stuff dies.

[gorblud]

You can use the generals inspiring precence, but not the BSB reroll since it isn't a leadership test.

Ah, I see why you have a problem with them now, I only ever field one of them.

[whatever]

I have always screamed into combat, but i must say this discussion has made me think about it! Yet after talking it through with a few friends non v.c. players we decided that it fits better with the fluff. The dead can't hear and are being controlled through magic so unlikely to hurt them!

Gw seems to have simplified rules to not allow shooting in to combat due to the difficulty of allocating wounds to the different combatants. however this is only going to effect other races. shouldn't effect other undead units at all but then the special rules would become overly complex.

Just my view and was stated as a magical attack back in WD 380

[Warrior of Chaos]

The thing is, all other special attacks says they CANNOT target into combat, while the death shriek doesn't. Why should the death shriek be the only attack that actually have to state that it can, instead of cannot?

The Terrorgeist rules are quite clear in the Vamp AB and in WD 379 where it first appeared. Gorblud you make a good arguement. Rules are rules as written; just sometimes they may need to be explained better with a FAQ. I find it funny that people are having this much of an issue with it.