Terrorgheist Death Shriek

[Brodrick]

I think Lance made a compelling argument.

I agree with his logic.

There does not appear to be any language in the rules that allow an attack targeting an engaged unit that the attacker is not in base to base contact with.

[gorblud]

I never said you were an idiot. I used capital letters to clarify that it said enemies. It's getting tiresome when people post things when they haven't even read the rules, and implying that it is possible to fire several shots per turn with war machines is just silly.

In warhammer most rules are written with restrictions, instead of things they are allowed.

Saying that the death shriek cannot be used against units engaged in combat would also mean that Zzzzap! attack, the reliquary and the cascet of souls explosion wouldn't be able to either.

[Senor]

You may own this thread..., really.
I will keep following it, just in case that I will get convinced. you'll never know, right :-)
With your ability to read or not reading it, that something IS, when not clearly stated, that it is, or not.
I just want to clearly state now..., that when I'm not responding every time, doesn't mean I'm convinced.
I'll let you know when I'm.

Wish you all the best.

[gorblud]

If you're not convinced already, I don't think you ever will be. I can't think of anything else to say since I, in my opinion, have already provided enough evidence that I'm right. What will probably happen now is that some people will bring up arguments which will either prove me wrong, or be proven wrong by me.

[Durpp]

So, there have been at least three threads based off of this topic, anybody know when the VC FAQ will be up? Or at least have an idea?
I know that I personally have been checking every day, as my main opponent is VC who looooveees Terrorgheists haha

[gorblud]

I have no idea, but I'm very much looking forward to it!

[Lance Tankmen]

looking forward to it but even if im right ill avoid the i told you so, and just say "whew glad GW isnt stupid"

[gorblud]

Yeah same here, I'm very aware they might faq it the other way around, but before they do, it is legal in my eyes.

[Lance Tankmen]

legal in your eyes, and honestly i think if i played another race i wouldnt care to read it another way, but i play a race that if its played that way, ill never , ever beat VC. brets only have a max of 15 knights... with +1 LD banner 10 LD with general in the unit, i run my knights 12 with 1-3 characters. on a bad roll of 1-1 nothing dies even on 2-1 nothing dies but everything after that i start losing knights, so to beat a bret player simply tarpit with any core n scream to win. Seemed way to broken to be how they ment it. Plus the general mind set is CC is generally left alone, ignore until over, not screamed into.... unless your skaven

[gorblud]

It's really hard for zombies to catch a unit with movement 8, if that unit does not want to be catched. You'd just have to change your strategies a bit. Charge the terrorgheist before the zombies for example. The terrorgheist only has a 6+ regen save and 4 attacks since thunderstomp doesn't work against cavalry. Those attacks hit on 4's, wound on 2's but are saved on 4+ armour save and 5+ ward save. You hit him on 3+, wound on 4+, get charge, 3 ranks, banner and maybe BSB. He would most likely die from static combat res alone.

[Lance Tankmen]

or fly away, nothing works as planed, and the chances of destorying a tarpited knight unit is quite likely as stated, he can also use his 20 inch move to get to the sides of me, last tournement i went to had 6 VC players, 3-4 has two terrorgheists, the tournement does not allow the scream into CC. at the end they decided to comp terrorgheists at -2 for one, and -6 for the other because of how well the VC players with them did(btw out of 22 players). sadly the reply was someone taking 3. so no i wont allow these monsters to scream into my combat and ruin my game. until GW states other wise and even then if its allowed im generally a great sport but ill leave if my entire knight units destoryed in CC by a scream... and i say tarpit but most combats last atleast 1 turn.

[gorblud]

Sounds like the best tournament ever. Do they give -2 to cannons aswell? it's too overpowered that they can kill a monster in one shot!!!

find a way to deal with it

[Shadowfane]

of course, looking at the rules, it doesnt actually say that the Terrorgeist can shoot into combat, just that if the TG is IN combat, it can use its shriek on one of the untis in base contact with it - so what it can't do, for example, is scream into a combat it is not itself part of.

*edit - also, I may just be bored and looking for an argument....*

[gorblud]

I've already explained why it should be able to scream into combats it is not engaged with

If engaged in combat it may target a unit it is in base contact with, unlike the ghoslty howl which can only target a unit in base contact.

[gorblud]

If the death shriek cannot target units engaged in combats, then neither can attacks that target all units within x"

[Shadowfane]

See, my objection is slightly more fundamental than that, though. Given that WFB is a permissive ruleset (where, if it doesn't say you can do it, you can't), where is the rule that lets you shriek into combat? You have a rule that lets you shriek if the TG is in combat, but nothing else.

[gorblud]

because targeting units engaged in combat is in step 2 of target for shooting, but unusual doesn't follow the rules for shooting, they have their own restrictions, only step 4-6.

Death shriek targets a single unit within 8" and in line of sight.
anvil of doom targets an unengaged unit anywhere on the table, which cannot be single targets, unless large target.

The anvil of doom says that the target has to be unengaged, but the death shriek doesn't

If you don't allow the screaming bell to target all creatures with more than toughness 6 (or something like that) even if engaged in combat, then you shouldn't allow the death shriek either of course. But if you do, then the death shriek is able to aswell.

In my group we play it that things that affects all units within X inches, also affects units that are engaged in close combat. Same goes for the death shriek.

[Fruhauf]

I think we will all have to wait for the FAQ. Pretty much everyone who plays against VC sees it as a limited attack whereas VC players see it as not. I don't like the tone the argument has taken at times, almost to a personal level. I think we'll all be better off waiting for the FAQ and in the mean time consult your opponent at the start of the game if you plan on using it. It's not worth losing friends over.

[Durpp]

Seconded. Started having heated, "are you serious?" arguments with my buddy over this. Then decided to let him have it because my judgement was based off of, "this is shinnanigan rule bending!"and his argument was based off of printed rules... And rules are rules.
Just looking forward to the faq. In the meantime I have a tough VC to deal with, but when they faq, I'll either have practice against it, or I'll have a weakened opponent. So, win win really.

[Maoriboy007]

Gorblud seems to have outlined the basis for his argument fairly well , while the opposing side seems to be along the lines of 1:" you cant shoot into combat so you can't scream into combat" when its already fairly established that its not a shooting attack or 2:"this is too inconvenient for me and can damage my units so I call shennanegans" regardless of the fact that shennagegans of varying sorts already abound in plentiful amounts in other armies, but for some reason are ok in those cases but in this case are just plain outrageous. Number 2 seems to come down to a matter of personal prejeduce but personally if I am expected to accept an odd aspect of a unit or rule form my opponants army , regardless of how outrageous it seems to me with no more than a raised eyebrow , then I expect the same should apply in the other direction. As long as some evidence can be supplied that thats how it works then unless there is a firm way to refute it I'll probably give my opponant the benefit of the doubt.
I agree that an FaQ is called for ASAP but in this case there is at least some evidence that the scream can be used in the manner that Gorblud has laid out.
As for the reputed overpoewrdness of Terrogeists, I'm sceptical, in my experience Mortis egines are the way to go. Terrorgheist are too expensive and limited to make a whole shooting phase, perhaps its the fact that they don't normally get a shooting phase that throws them off?