"A fleet of 3,500 ships" is that a lot by 40k standards? Fleet size in 40k fluff

[Poseidal]

50 sectors worth of interstellar warships. Here's quoting Rogue Trader (RPG)

In that case, if that's the majority then it could be 500 sectors worth (with a 10:1 ratio):

An Imperial sector fleet has 50-75 ships by BFG rulebook and is the largest permanent formation of the Imperial Navy.

It doesn't mention whether this include the sub-luminal or not. These are the largest permanent fleets; larger fleets are only formed when there is a specific purpose.

Sub-luminal ships are more or less defence satellites. They lack the ability to re-locate and concentrate force, and function to only slow down an attacking fleet until help arrives. They are significant in number over the entire Imperium simply because you must have them stationed at every point; if there were one or two per Imperial World it would be a lot.

[thor2006]

In that case, if that's the majority then it could be 500 sectors worth (with a 10:1 ratio):

An Imperial sector fleet has 50-75 ships by BFG rulebook and is the largest permanent formation of the Imperial Navy.

It doesn't mention whether this include the sub-luminal or not. These are the largest permanent fleets; larger fleets are only formed when there is a specific purpose.

Sub-luminal ships are more or less defence satellites. They lack the ability to re-locate and concentrate force, and function to only slow down an attacking fleet until help arrives. They are significant in number over the entire Imperium simply because you must have them stationed at every point; if there were one or two per Imperial World it would be a lot.

Sub luminal ships are normal ships in the destroyer-cruiser range that do not posses a warp drive and a gellar field.
Defense station and satellites are counted in a different way than sub-luminal ships.

[Poseidal]

On a strategic level, they are the same. To relocate a defence satellite or sub-luminal ship that orbits something they need to defend (i.e. a satellite) you require a separate lot of carriers or break them down and ship them over. An FTL fleet differs in that you can relocate it, and within certain travel times it can cover a far larger area for less resources.

If you detect an enemy fleet incoming on the world, it is likely they have enough force to overwhelm the local defences (the sub luminal ships), and the other sub-luminal ships on the other worlds are incapable of helping. FTL ships can concentrate force, so they can route to a planet to defend it with a far larger fleet which isn't split over several systems.

Stationing 10 sub-luminal ships on each of 20 planets is costlier than 30 flt ships that can cover the same area.

The sub-luminal ships function is only slightly greater than a Defence Laser or Macro Cannon stationed on a planet. (They can stop enemies from 'setting up shop' in the system though, and have other flexible advantages).

[Lord Zarkov]

Sub-luminal fleets aren't necessarily part of the IN - system defence fleets can actually come under the local Imperial Governor (much like the PDF).

Also, the 50-75 Sector Fleet is the main IN fleet that patrols the space lanes in the whole sector - each system (of which there are many) could (and likely does) then have it's own 10-50 ship SDF, which, while still smaller than the Sector Fleet (the largest permanent formation), would mean the overall number of warships in the sector would be a lot larger than the 50-75 Warp capable ones in the Sector Fleet.

Counting from the Maps in the BFG book, the Gothic Sector has about 80 systems, so the overall number of warships in the sector could be well over 1,000.


Edit: Sub-luminal ships are there as a delaying tactic (and partly for Planetary pride). It takes a while for the Sector Fleet to muster and make their way to a system (many of them are on individual patrols). The SDF is there to hold up the enemy until the IN gets there, and inflict some damage on any invading flotilla (both in case it escapes before the Sector Fleet gets there, and to stop enemy transport ships planning an invasion).

[Poseidal]

Edit: Sub-luminal ships are there as a delaying tactic

As I stated earlier

I can see the sub-luminal ships coming under the Imperial Governor (so again, not in the Navy).

Would each system have a fleet though? Important worlds would for sure, but the random feral worlds and things like that?

Sub-light ships do count, but they only count individually in the system they are in and not the area. If you were to rate the defensive maximum capability of a single sector, if it had 10 sublight ships on each world, and a Sector Fleet size of 50, then 60 ships is the 'maximum'. The spread ships are more of an advantage against small operations or attacks on multiple fronts.

[Sai-Lauren]

Sub-luminal ships are there as a delaying tactic (and partly for Planetary pride). It takes a while for the Sector Fleet to muster and make their way to a system (many of them are on individual patrols). The SDF is there to hold up the enemy until the IN gets there, and inflict some damage on any invading flotilla (both in case it escapes before the Sector Fleet gets there, and to stop enemy transport ships planning an invasion).

They're mainly there for anti-piracy, system security, customs (preventing smuggling, making sure the appropriate duties are paid, etc), in-system emergencies and so on.

[nagash66]

It is also worth mentioning that many planets/systems would have additional ships which would not belong to either the PDF or the IN. The Mechanicus maintains its own Naval forces. BL and FFG sources have show shrine/Munistorum worlds to also have naval/army assets which do not obey to traditional Adminastratum hierarchy. Key worlds where significant events have taken place also at times contain honor guards which can range up to Emperors class Battleships ( as is the case with the Lord Solar Macharius resting place) or permanent Space Marine patrols garrisons (which include naval assets).

To say nothing of the rogue traders, armed and armored transports ( some of which can go toe to toe with escorts) and behemoth ships like the Imperial High Conveyor ( FW IA 10 IIRC) which have been built/modified to go into battle if needs be and can pack more firepower then a standard Imperial Navy light cruiser.

Like many things in GWs background the number of Imperial Ships in any 1 place are usually what the story requires them to be, and the information given regarding numbers are as always heavily source and author dependent.

[Leftenant Gashrog]

If you account thunderhawks as part of the fleet number, than a SM fleet would be around 40-50 ships. l

Depends on the numbers for Thunderhawks, 40k specific texts tends to be woefully low for gunships (and tend to overlook the issue of vehicle transporters altogether..) - EPIC Armageddon gives Strike Cruisers 6 Thunderhawk Gunships plus 4 Landing Craft with Battle Barges having 9 Strike Cruisers and 12 Landing Craft. (which makes sense to me, thats 3 Gunships per BFG Thunderhawk Squadron) that would mean at unlikely bare minimum necessary to combat-deploy a full strength chapter (3 Barges, 1 Cruiser) you'd be looking at 76, and that's without a single escort and assuming the chapter only uses Landing Craft instead of Thunderhawk Transporters.

[Sai-Lauren]

It is also worth mentioning that many planets/systems would have additional ships which would not belong to either the PDF or the IN. The Mechanicus maintains its own Naval forces. BL and FFG sources have show shrine/Munistorum worlds to also have naval/army assets which do not obey to traditional Adminastratum hierarchy. Key worlds where significant events have taken place also at times contain honor guards which can range up to Emperors class Battleships ( as is the case with the Lord Solar Macharius resting place) or permanent Space Marine patrols garrisons (which include naval assets).

To say nothing of the rogue traders, armed and armored transports ( some of which can go toe to toe with escorts) and behemoth ships like the Imperial High Conveyor ( FW IA 10 IIRC) which have been built/modified to go into battle if needs be and can pack more firepower then a standard Imperial Navy light cruiser.

Like many things in GWs background the number of Imperial Ships in any 1 place are usually what the story requires them to be, and the information given regarding numbers are as always heavily source and author dependent.

Plus the Arbites, who, depending on the system may simply use the local SDF's, or have their own vessels (Crossfire for example).

[m1acca1551]

Important worlds will have sublight vessels capable of hindering and fighting pirates or lone vessels, they wouldnt be classed as part of the imperial navy as the tonnage or class would not be high enough to rate. Trade worlds etc could be expected to use aquired pirate vessels impounded ships and retired former navy ships that are generaly frigate to 5th class cruisers. Major trade worlds would most likely fall under the umbrella of naval command as these worlds would have the ports to service capital ships.

The size of a sector fleet depends on the sector, has the fleet been canabalized for ships? Fleet numbers would run into the low thousands but again you'd only ever count vessels of a certain tonnage and fighting vessels.

The imperium though wouldn't have any qualms with pressing merchant fleets into service to defend an area should the need arise.

[nagash66]

All this without even attempting to count the massive number of mothballed/reserve ships spread around the galaxy.

[Aluinn]

I don't think that seems ridiculous; the CWE (and pirates descended/split from them) live an entirely space-based existence, thus almost every substantial undertaking of construction they engage in would be either an expansion of a Craftworld or the building of a ship. Given that the Craftworlds are, for the most part, becoming more sparsely populated over time and thus don't require any expansion, and only require repair very rarely, all any Eldar engineers and construction crew are likely to be engaged in is shipbuilding. It seems logical that over the amount of time they've been drifting around, they would, as a result, have a ridiculous number of ships in proportion to their population vis-a-vis the Imperium, most of which, in terms of infrastructure, is based on planets.

Basically, whenever the Imperium builds a hive city, or whatever, they could be using those resources instead to build some number of warships, theoretically. The Eldar don't have to make anything like that; they can just build ships.

And as others have said that number probably includes non-combat vessels because the Eldar fleet has to serve all the requirements of the Eldar, with the probably rare exception of those times that they make port at a Craftworld (assuming it would give them supplies and other material assistance, which it might not), whereas Imperial fleet numbers cited in fluff often include only warships.

(Granted the Imperium has access to vastly more resources, but: A) The Eldar make things out of wraithbone which they conjure from nothing, so at least the raw structural material isn't much limited except by how much work the bonesingers can handle; B) they engage in far less open war and suffer far fewer losses to replace; and C) they are likely much more efficient in their use of resources than the Imperium, both because the Imperium is horrifically inefficient as a whole galactic entity, and because there are just far fewer Eldar who are far less exposed to risk.)

[Stonerhino]

Something to note. That Eldar fleet likely consists of a larger proportion of escorts then the equivilent Imperial Navy fleet would.

Eldar ships are able to punch well above their weight because of their speed+firepower. So the need to construct slower large vessals is not as prevalent.

[Connor MacLeod]

Quote bombardment incoming.

BFG manual page 86

Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size, although in some sectors this willb e more or less, according to the importance of the sector and the number of enemies it must contend with. As well as these destroyers, frigates, cruisers and battleships, a battlefleet also has access to countles smaller vessels such as transports, shuttles, messenger craft and long range patrol craft. In addition to interstellar vessels, a sector will also be protected by numerous ships incapable of warp travel, such as system patrol ships and defence monitors.

Size of a battlefleet as per BFg. It's more an 'average' than an absolute, since we know both that Battlefleet armageddon and the EoT campaign mentioned larger fleets. Other sources mention considerably greater, but it might be chalked up to 'active' vs 'reserve' vessels (we know the Imperium mothballs its older or harder to maintain ship designs.
This also includes only warp capable, military warships. It doesn't include nonmilitary (or probably quasi military, like armed merchant cruisers or such) and privately owned vessels. Obviously it also does not include sub-stellar vessels of any kind (although since most are generally escort size, this isn't a huge factor either.)

Andy Chambers quote from the net, found here:

Q: In the ship section, there is mention of Imperial Oberon-class battlecruisers and Apocalypse-class battleships. Were these cut from the registry to save room? Also, will these be making an appearance in a future issue of WD or possibly a supplement?

A: No we just wanted to give an impression of there being a greater number of ship classes and designs in the galaxy than were depicted in the book, particularly as Gothic sector is but one among thousands. Having said that we might well put some extra ship designs in WD at some point.

Thousands of sectors probably means thousands of battlefleets, at least according to Andy ChamberS (for whatever that is worth) With BFG we might figure on at around 100-150 thousand warp capable starships as a rough figure.

Space Fleet

The combined merchant fleets comprise almost 90% of all interstellar spacecraft in the Imperium. Each fleet is based in one of the five Segmentae Majoris. and its administrative staff operate from the Segmcntum Fortress. For example, the Solar fleet is based on Mars, while the fleet of the northern zone - the Segmentum Obscurus - is based on Cypra Mundi. Although these fleet bases are huge ports equipped with docks, shipyards and repair facilities, their main function is to administrate the fleets operating within their area. Only a small proportion of ships ever travel to the Segmentum Fortress where they are theoretically based.
...
Although the vast majority of interstellar spacecraft are part of the merchant fleets, there are several thousand ships registered to individuals, families or trading cartels. All privately-owned interstellar craft operate along routes licensed to them by the fleet authorities responsible for shipping within that Segementum.

Space Fleet. Older lfuff but may still be valid in some cases (it has been recycled in Rogue Trader's RPG for example.) Space Fleet divided the navy up for each segmentum into three components - military, merchnat and civilian (privately owned) vessels. 90% of the naval ships were merchant vessels, and clearly less than 1% are going to be privately owned. That means around 9-10% are military vessels.

3rd edition rules, page 100

he psychic beacon stretches across 70,000 light years of space, a focus for the millions of commercial craft and warships that navigate through the tumultuous waves of the warp. The Navigators who guide human ships need the Astronomican, and without it the Imperium would fragment as warp travel became utterly hazardous and Imperial authority would be impossible to enforce.

'millions' of military and commercial (merchant) craft Given the aforementioned ratio, hundred thousand plus warships is likely

5th edition rulebook, page 124

401.M34
Black Templar Space Marines end the Catelexis Heresy by executing the Cacodominus, an alien cyborg whose formidable psychic presence allowed it to control the populace of thirteen hundred planetary systems. Alas, the Cacodominus' death scream echoes and amplifies through the Warp, burning out the minds of a billion astropaths and distorting the signal of the Astronomican. Millions upon Millions of ships are lost in the resulting upheaval and entire sub-sectors slide into barbarism without the dictats of the Adeptus Terra to guide them.

Millions upon millions of warp capable ships lost. What's notable here is that 'millions' by this is not a significant number for the Imperium to lose in a single, major catastrophe. Indeed in context its quite minor. Hundreds of thousands of warships again is quite likely from this.

Deathwatch: Rising Tempest, page 214

These regions are the domain of the Imperial Navy; made up of thousands of sector battle fleets and countless vessels the Imperial Navy patrols the void and protects the Imperium’s borders as well as the darkness between its worlds.

Thousands of battle fleets, again 100-150 thousand vessels as a reasonable approxmation.

Battlefleet Koronous: Page 67

Also called the Battlefleet Commander, lord high-admiral is the highest rank of the Imperial Navy. Only five of these august individuals exist, one for each of the Segmentae Majoris. Each is responsible for the Imperial Navy’s fighting forces across the thousands of sectors in their allotted quadrant of the galaxy, or in the case of the Lord High-Admiral Solar, the substantial volumes around Holy Terra itself.

Thousands of sectors in a single segmentum (possibly excluding Solar, depending on how you interpret) at least 8-10 thousand sectors by this, although given that some (like Ultima) are quite large this could be an under statement. Again hundreds of thousands of warships implied for hte Navy is quite possible.

Battlefleet Koronous, page 68

In ancient times when an entire Battlefleet might be massed together, the thousands of ships present would be divided in to three commands, each under their own admiral.

A rather more liberal interpetation might suggest thousands of warships, but it may include navy transports of various types as well as the warships, but hundreds of warships is reasonable from this.

Execution Hour (paperback) Page 33

Those readers less well-versed in the details of the later events of the Gothic Sector War may wonder why I have involved myself to such an extent in the events surrounding one vessel - which was, to be sure, just one of hundreds such warships amongst Battlefleet Gothic - and its so far unknown captain.

Hundreds of warships (or cruisers, if you want to be liberal) in the gothic fleet. given 'thousands' of sectors we're tlaking close to half a million warships by this interpetation.

PAge 27

Not even the lowliest rating or indentured slave-worker aboard any of the hundreds of Imperial Navy warships under his command would be in any doubt about the figure’s identity..

Spoken of Ravensburg for context. Confirms the 'hundreds of warships' in the gothic sector fleet. This may reflect both active warships, mothballed reserves and quite possibly other kinds of warp capable ships (Freighters, such) converted to military use.

Now people can take some or all of those quotes however they want (or none) but that's what I can recall explicitly as far as fleet sizes go from various sources. I will also note that the HH series implies hundreds of thousands of starships in the Great Crusade fleet (horus Rising with fleet numbers and estimated fleet sizes from various novels, hundreds of thousands of ships built for the Great Crusade in A Thousand Sons, a million [war] ships mentioned by Lorgar I think in First Heretic, etc.) I'd guess the GC/HH fleets would not be vastly bigger than modern fleets, but take it as you will.

[Bennybenben12]

the corsairs may have a large fleet but consider this, what is the use of having a large fleet when it cant be summoned into one place, with the consideration of planets and asteroids and suns, debris, black holes, warp dispersion's ect. this is all taken into account even going through the webway, and this always voids there high number, because unlike the corsairs, the imperium would have plotted these problems and been able to navigate and drop out of the warp effectively with higher numbers

[Lupe]

the corsairs may have a large fleet but consider this, what is the use of having a large fleet when it cant be summoned into one place, with the consideration of planets and asteroids and suns, debris, black holes, warp dispersion's ect. this is all taken into account even going through the webway, and this always voids there high number, because unlike the corsairs, the imperium would have plotted these problems and been able to navigate and drop out of the warp effectively with higher numbers

The point of having a fleet this size isn't to bring it all together in one place to decide the outcome of a battle.

The point is to split it up carefully to decide the outcome of a campaign over a far larger chunk of the galaxy - sub-sector level at the least, probably more than several sectors at best. You need to have multiple sub-fleets large enough to repel or outright defeat any opposition. You need to have enough sub-fleets to cover all the key areas in whatever theater of operations you're currently in. You need to have enough ships away from the decisive battle to keep out any nearby forces from interfering with the outcome. You also need to have enough forces in close (i.e several hours of travel) proximity of each other to be able to divert strength to where it's actually needed (i.e the decisive battle), without greatly compromising your operations in other areas (i.e raids, escort duty, patrols). Also, you need to have more than one set of lance batteries that you can fall back to if one decisive battle goes wrong...

[Bennybenben12]

The point of having a fleet this size isn't to bring it all together in one place to decide the outcome of a battle.

The point is to split it up carefully to decide the outcome of a campaign over a far larger chunk of the galaxy - sub-sector level at the least, probably more than several sectors at best. You need to have multiple sub-fleets large enough to repel or outright defeat any opposition. You need to have enough sub-fleets to cover all the key areas in whatever theater of operations you're currently in. You need to have enough ships away from the decisive battle to keep out any nearby forces from interfering with the outcome. You also need to have enough forces in close (i.e several hours of travel) proximity of each other to be able to divert strength to where it's actually needed (i.e the decisive battle), without greatly compromising your operations in other areas (i.e raids, escort duty, patrols). Also, you need to have more than one set of lance batteries that you can fall back to if one decisive battle goes wrong...

That is true but consider this, from what I can see about the corsairs, they are a rogue almost nomadic elder split off, and considering that they would not have certain sub-sectors to keep and hold, they would move about. Now, being split down into battle groups does make the most sense, but it also makes the least, because whereas you have a fall back incase one is destroyed, this allows the
Opposing fleet to systematically dispose of each fleet if they are smaller numbers ect. Just my thoughts!

[Lupe]

That is true but consider this, from what I can see about the corsairs, they are a rogue almost nomadic elder split off, and considering that they would not have certain sub-sectors to keep and hold, they would move about. Now, being split down into battle groups does make the most sense, but it also makes the least, because whereas you have a fall back incase one is destroyed, this allows the
Opposing fleet to systematically dispose of each fleet if they are smaller numbers ect. Just my thoughts!

A battlegroup doesn't need to be smaller than the opposing fleet. In fact, if you've got 3500 ships, each battlegroup can be well in excess of 100 ships strong. And even if they outnumber a potential enemy fleet they encounter, they can very well call in other nearby battlegroups, using evasive maneuvers to postpone a battle until they achieve an overwhelming number.

Now, that particular faction of eldar being nomad doesn't actually stop them from actually seizing ground, or holding on to a sector. They don't actually need the territory, but it helps if they have naval superiority over any area they are currently operating in. When they're done or hey find a more rewarding target, they can just relinquish the territory they were consolidating.

[Poseidal]

Traditionally, aren't Eldar ships very adept at escaping?

In terms of concentration of Force, I would say the Eldar fleets are faster at rallying, but only where they have access to webway gates. Without them, they don't travel as well in the real-space areas as Imperial ships (though still better than Tau).

[Bennybenben12]

A battlegroup doesn't need to be smaller than the opposing fleet. In fact, if you've got 3500 ships, each battlegroup can be well in excess of 100 ships strong. And even if they outnumber a potential enemy fleet they encounter, they can very well call in other nearby battlegroups, using evasive maneuvers to postpone a battle until they achieve an overwhelming number.

Now, that particular faction of eldar being nomad doesn't actually stop them from actually seizing ground, or holding on to a sector. They don't actually need the territory, but it helps if they have naval superiority over any area they are currently operating in. When they're done or hey find a more rewarding target, they can just relinquish the territory they were consolidating.

Ahh this is true! Plus with they holoshields and superior weapons and speed, this would make that smaller better! But I just gotta know, these eldar ships obviously operate without craftworlds, so therefore no stations to dock into to repair, would this not make a strain on the nature of smaller fleets, and the fleet in general, because it has never been documented for eldar to have space stations? Therefore making a significant disadvantage, the ability to reproduce ships the fleet, unlike the imperium who just build more