Hitting things outside of LOS with blasts?

[totgeboren]

Hey all, a situation arose yesterday which left me somewhat confused.

A Fire Prism targets a Land Raider with the prism cannon thingy, which has a blast. The Land Raider had a single infantry model hiding behind it (entirely outside of LOS from the Prism). Naturally the Eldar player placed the blast so that it hit the Land Raider, and also covered the infantry model hiding behind it. He hits with the blast.

Here is my question, can the infantry model whom is entirely hidden from view from the firer be hit by the blast? That is, can it be killed by said blast?

In the rules for blasts it says that "Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon's maximum or minimum range and line of sight." and goes on "In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight". And it then finishes with "Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."

So what about when the blast does not scatter? Can it still hit models outside of LOS?

And the rules for normal shooting attacks state in bold that "If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends."

However, if the models outside of LOS are not the 'target unit', what happens then?

My guess it that the intent is that you only use the blast for determining number of hits, and disregard LOS and such things at that stage. However, after this is done, wounds are allocated as normal, meaning that even if you scored a bunch of hits on a unit, if you can't see anyone in that unit, all the wounds are lost, even if the unit hit was not the 'target unit'.

What say you?

[Infidel]

Go with the sensible version - if it can scatter to hit models out of LoS, it can hit models out of LoS when it doesn't scatter.

[totgeboren]

Go with the sensible version - if it can scatter to hit models out of LoS, it can hit models out of LoS when it doesn't scatter.

I don't doubt that models outside of LoS can be hit by blasts even if it doesn't scatter (as you must place the center of the blast within LoS before rolling to hit). However, the rules for allocating wounds caused by blast weapons follow the normal rules for ranged weapons, meaning no wounds can be caused to non-visible models. As I read it.

It can hit models outside of LoS, but wounds cannot be caused on models outside of LoS. Right? So a single model hiding behind a big vehicle could be hit by blasts, but no wounds could be caused to it (unless the blast was also a barrage).

[Nurgling Chieftain]

This is pretty much just like 4th edition, IIRC. If you scatter, models that were out of LoS can still be hit, but if you do not scatter, the normal rules apply.

This does not bother me in the slightest, BTW. You're firing a blast at the front of a land raider and expecting it to hit the guy cowering behind it. Not bloody likely.

[totgeboren]

This is pretty much just like 4th edition, IIRC. If you scatter, models that were out of LoS can still be hit, but if you do not scatter, the normal rules apply.

This does not bother me in the slightest, BTW. You're firing a blast at the front of a land raider and expecting it to hit the guy cowering behind it. Not bloody likely.

So you are saying the model hiding out of LoS can't be killed, even if it could potentially be hit (scatter or no scatter)?

To make a simple example. Lets say we have a building that blocks LoS. Standing at the corner is a unit of two orks, one in the open and one hidden behind the building. Next to the hidden ork stands a grot, also outside of LoS.
A blast weapon targets the ork unit, as it contains one model that can be seen. The blast misses the ork in the open, scatters and instead hits the ork and grot hidden behind the building. Both the grot and the ork are wounded. The only ork model that can be removed as a casualty is the one in the open. The wound on the grot is discarded, as that unit contains no visible models to the firer.

Would this be correct, or is the grot also killed?

[Madigan]

It sounds to me like you got it exactly correct, totgeboren. Blasts can HIT models out of Line of Sight and WOUNDS can be generated from those hits, but you still can't allocate wounds to models that are out of LoS to the firing unit. The rulebook makes it clear that wounds that cannot be allocated are simply lost.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

No no no no no. Once you scatter, all range and LoS rules are effectively ignored. You're only subject to LoS preventing casualty removal if your blast hits.

[USER1]

No no no no no. Once you scatter, all range and LoS rules are effectively ignored. You're only subject to LoS preventing casualty removal if your blast hits.

No. Any models under the template, scatter or not, are hit and wounds calculated. These wounds are than assigned as normal to the nearest model in LOS, once there are no models in LOS the remaining wounds are lost. I cant see any wiggle room in this. The model behind the land raider cannot have wounds assigned to it even if the template scattered.

The rules about blasts being able to hit models out of LOS are there for when you can see some of the unit but not the models under the template.

[Madigan]

Once a blast scatters, models out of line of sight can be hit and wounded, but that doesn't change the fact that models out of line of sight cannot have wounds allocated to them. Hitting, wounding, and allocating wounds are still three different things in the rules, and totgeboren already pointed out in the OP the rule that for scattered blasts, wounds are allocated using the rules for normal shooting, aka wounds cannot be allocated to models that cannot be seen be the firing unit.

[Kaltenberg]

We have had the same troubles. But after rereading the rules I think they are pretty clear.
page 16: models out of line of sigth canot take wounds. (more or less)

page 33 blast: 3rd parargraph: .. roll for scatter ect.
page 33 blast second collum, 1st paragraph: "In these cases hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and out of sigth." (this lates paragrahp is encompasing the all the possible scatters, it does not disregard the "hits")

It is clear that the last paragraph mentioned overrules the tule on page 16 by explicitly stating so.

Therefore, blast can hit and wound even out of line of sigth. And it can do so reagardless of the how the scatter dice behave.

[totgeboren]

We have had the same troubles. But after rereading the rules I think they are pretty clear.
page 16: models out of line of sigth canot take wounds. (more or less)

page 33 blast: 3rd parargraph: .. roll for scatter ect.
page 33 blast second collum, 1st paragraph: "In these cases hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and out of sigth." (this lates paragrahp is encompasing the all the possible scatters, it does not disregard the "hits")

It is clear that the last paragraph mentioned overrules the tule on page 16 by explicitly stating so.

Therefore, blast can hit and wound even out of line of sigth. And it can do so reagardless of the how the scatter dice behave.

I agree, however, all those wounds caused on models outside of LoS are still subject to the rule on p.16 which states "If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends."

You can hit and wound models outside of LoS, however, if the unit which got hit and wounded have no models within LoS, all those wounds are lost, as there are no models available that can take the wounds.

[Kaltenberg]

Why does: "In these cases hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and out of sigth." not negate the rule on page 16?
I qouted directly from the book above.
If it is not specifically meant to overrule the rule on page 16, what is then the purpose of the above sentence?

[GodlessM]

Why does: "In these cases hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and out of sigth." not negate the rule on page 16?
I qouted directly from the book above.
If it is not specifically meant to overrule the rule on page 16, what is then the purpose of the above sentence?

Because Warseer said you're not allowed be reasonable and logical and still be right.

[totgeboren]

Why does: "In these cases hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and out of sigth." not negate the rule on page 16?
I qouted directly from the book above.
If it is not specifically meant to overrule the rule on page 16, what is then the purpose of the above sentence?

I don't see how the rule you quoted would in any way overrule the rule from page 16. The rule on page 16 describes what happens if there are no models left within LoS and you still have wounds (which you have successfully caused) to allocate. They are lost, and the rules for blasts even end with "Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."

This to me means wound allocation is dealt with as normal, meaning a unit with no models within LoS can't suffer any casualties.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I don't see how the rule you quoted would in any way overrule the rule from page 16.

The fact that the two rules are completely incompatible - it is impossible to follow both rules in any conceivable circumstance - means that one rule must override the other. In this case, it's pretty obvious that the much more specific rule regarding scattering blasts is an exception to the general rule.

(this lates paragrahp is encompasing the all the possible scatters, it does not disregard the "hits")

Not really seeing how "In these cases..." could be referring to something other than situation described in the immediately preceding sentence. A "hit" is not a "scatter".

[totgeboren]

The fact that the two rules are completely incompatible - it is impossible to follow both rules in any conceivable circumstance - means that one rule must override the other. In this case, it's pretty obvious that the much more specific rule regarding scattering blasts is an exception to the general rule.

Not really seeing how "In these cases..." could be referring to something other than situation described in the immediately preceding sentence. A "hit" is not a "scatter".

To cause casualties by shooting, you do three things.
1. You hit. Special rules for doing this using blasts.
2. You wound. The wounds are collected in a 'Wound Pool'.
3. You allocate the wounds from the 'Wound Pool'.

The rules for blasts describe how you determine if you hit (and if you wound) when using blast type weapons, and the rules for blasts end with "Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."
How can these rules in any way be incompatible, as how to do the last bit (allocate wounds) is simply a reference to the standard rules?

The rules as they are make sense to me. If you shoot with a blast, and lets say you scatter and hit 2 models from unit A and 1 from B, all outside of LoS, you still roll to wound as normal. If you can see some other models from these units, those models can be removed as casualties, even if they are far apart. If the wounds you caused were all done to units where you could not see any models, all the wounds would be wasted as per the normal rules.

[Grentain]

Just look at it this way: You shoot at one dude you can see, the blast catches four other dudes that you can't see. Now you've got four more chances to kill that one guy!

[DoctorTom]

Or, you kill the ones out of sight, like the quoted rule "In these cases hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and out of sight." indicates you can do. It's not just getting to roll a wound pool - you actually get to wound the unit. If the entire unit is out of sight and the scattering blast lands on them, if you don't get to actually allocate any of the wounds then you haven't actually wounded the unit. The rule for scattering blasts doesn't specify that it's "to wound" rolls. Trying to claim that page 16 overrides a more specific rule given for scattering blasts is trying to look for Easter Eggs.

[totgeboren]

Or, you kill the ones out of sight, like the quoted rule "In these cases hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and out of sight." indicates you can do. It's not just getting to roll a wound pool - you actually get to wound the unit. If the entire unit is out of sight and the scattering blast lands on them, if you don't get to actually allocate any of the wounds then you haven't actually wounded the unit. The rule for scattering blasts doesn't specify that it's "to wound" rolls. Trying to claim that page 16 overrides a more specific rule given for scattering blasts is trying to look for Easter Eggs.

So you are saying we should not follow the rules for allocating wounds caused by blasts when we have successfully wounded a unit using blasts? I'm definitely not claiming page 16 overrides the rules for blasts (given on page 33). I'm giving a direct quote of the ending sentence of the rules for blasts from p 33. "Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."

Claiming you can kill models outside of LoS with blast weapons is directly contradicting both the rules on p.16 and the specific rules for blasts on p.33.

This is hardly a case of me finding 'Easter Eggs'.

[Madigan]

I think what totgeboran is saying here is that while the rules for blast weapons alter the generic/simpler rules for hitting and wounding units, the only mention of how those hits and wounds should be allocated is to use the normal rules. Blasts can HIT models out of line of sight, and you can roll to WOUND for those hits, but you are still not given explicit permission to ALLOCATE said wounds in any other way than by the normal rules. Wounds can only be allocated to models that are in line of site, and if you run out of in-LoS models to allocate wounds from the Wound Pool to, they are lost.