Are grey knights still filth?

[Beppo1234]

@ beppo, Gk do show up as self contained armies when the need is great, ie purge a world due to daemon infestation, or purge a regiment due to psychic contamination. I always have a reason for my Gk showing up.... Main reason is that I like them self contained.

good for you... but I just feel that GK self contained armies should only show up once and a while, ie. once every 100 years or so or big gaming events where they void their rarity. For me, they should never have been given a full army in the regular game.

that being said, I understand why they did it. To support a plastic line, they need to generate demand to sell lots, to justify the investment. I just don't agree with it.

[hazmiter]

If your going on about rarity, then eldar would have 0-1 on stuff due to being a dying race. The game is about fluff and gaming.
Fluff perspective, yeah, they should be coming out once every so often to cause hell for peeps, but gaming wise, even a 1.5k match is hell.

[Xerkics]

Eldar still are a dying race in the perspective that humanity has untold billions and eldar probably number like a billion among all the craftworlds if they are lucky after all, craftworld is a size of a moon + there are exodite eldar living on the planets out there who left before the fall. So they can still have hundreds of thousands of eldar warriors its just in the long run they are doomed.

And Grey knights are still filth because 6th edition hasnt changed the fact that they are criminaly undercosted across the board like i said previously. Its just other armies got buffs

[Zinch]

And Grey knights are still filth because 6th edition hasnt changed the fact that they are criminaly undercosted across the board like i said previously. Its just other armies got buffs

I think 6th has nerfed GK to a acceptable level. I think that in the current meta, Necrons, GK, IG, SW, BA and DE are on the same power level.

The most important point with 6th refering to GK is that rhino vehicles are very easy to wreck and when outside of a tank, a GK dies from shoting as easily as a tactical SM but costing a lot more. Also now the wrecked vehicle only grants a 5+ cover save, not a 4¡ like before. This alone makes GK beatable by any shoting army. Against assault armies is a completely different issue...

[ghoulio]

I think 6th has nerfed GK to a acceptable level. I think that in the current meta, Necrons, GK, IG, SW, BA and DE are on the same power level.

The most important point with 6th refering to GK is that rhino vehicles are very easy to wreck and when outside of a tank, a GK dies from shoting as easily as a tactical SM but costing a lot more. Also now the wrecked vehicle only grants a 5+ cover save, not a 4¡ like before. This alone makes GK beatable by any shoting army. Against assault armies is a completely different issue...

No offense but your logic makes no sense to me. I still dont understand how 6th ed nerfed GK in any way? Paladins got WAY better this edition (all being characters so can snipe units with shooting) and terminators are the bomb. You mentioned the dumbest sounding argument that everyone throws out to defend this army and that is talking about their toughness when you say "They die like marines". So what you are saying is the die like the most resilient army in the game? Yeah, that IS rough. You also mention that they cost a lot more but they only cost 4pts per model more for giving them a storm bolter, FORCE sword, psychics and psychic defense. They still have the best mid ranged shooting in the game, their AT is still amazing, all the hits to their vehicles EVERYONE took so that's a wash and they still have tonnes of psykers and added psychic defense above Deny The Witch. So I still see them as incredibly over powered and an army I go out of my way to not play them not because I dont think I can win, but because I have zero fun playing such a bland, point and shoot army.

[Zinch]

No offense but your logic makes no sense to me. I still dont understand how 6th ed nerfed GK in any way? Paladins got WAY better this edition (all being characters so can snipe units with shooting) and terminators are the bomb. You mentioned the dumbest sounding argument that everyone throws out to defend this army and that is talking about their toughness when you say "They die like marines". So what you are saying is the die like the most resilient army in the game? Yeah, that IS rough. You also mention that they cost a lot more but they only cost 4pts per model more for giving them a storm bolter, FORCE sword, psychics and psychic defense. They still have the best mid ranged shooting in the game, their AT is still amazing, all the hits to their vehicles EVERYONE took so that's a wash and they still have tonnes of psykers and added psychic defense above Deny The Witch. So I still see them as incredibly over powered and an army I go out of my way to not play them not because I dont think I can win, but because I have zero fun playing such a bland, point and shoot army.

Characters sniping is an overrated rule that has not such a big impact in real games but for a few examples (killing commisars in IG blob and Ork Nobs) and even then you could be shoting at non optimal targets just for the posible benefit of a sniper result...

Terminators are hard in this edition. I don't deny it, but GK aren't the only ones with 2+ AS units and the GK don't have a Storm Shield (which makes TH/SS better in my opinion).

Psychic defense now only works against ofensive powers, not against all of them like before, an even when it can be used, is a 5+ save (unless there's a librarian in the unit), not a 50% posibility of nulifying a power like before.

You shouldn't care about force weapons if you are not assaulting them (which I said is another story) and storm bolters are not much better than a normal bolter in 6th edition (unless they take psybolt ammunition, making the unit more expensive still).

I understand the negative reaction to the "overmentioned" point that "they die just like SM, but are more expensive", because in 5th edition it was a lot harder to take advantatge of, for the sole reason of the Razor/Rhino spam, that was always protecting the precious GK inside. But this list is not as powerful as before: Rhino hulls just die very quick now. They can take you wherever you want to go, but they aren't "moving bunkers" anymore.

As you said, palladins squads are very good now, but I don't think GK as a whole are that nasty now, they have taken a greater hit than people seems to realise...

[andyg2006]

Play what you like - it's your money, time, army background, etc.

Personally, I have the same quandary.
I always liked my Codex Marines, but when I saw the GK Codex, I thought: "Why would anyone not want to play GK's instead?" Ghoulio got it spot on for me in that you get a whole load of extra stuff for no points.

If I want a regular sergeant with a power weapon, he costs me double? a marine's cost...and he's the only guy in the unit who has one, so if he dies our ability to kill people in melee goes back to normal.
Or, I could just take a GK unit where everyone has them and I can Hammerhand everyone on my side in that combat, too.

If I had a squad of vanilla marines with bolters + power weapons, they should be double their normal cost.
GK's aren't double the cost though (they're about half a normal marine cost cheaper than this?), so that's already a big plus for them as they are cheaper than they should be.
Then they get better guns & the 'force' weapon ability & psychic powers on top (which are all for free).

I can see what Zinch is saying about not assaulting, but having the flexibility to be good at shooting and close combat for about the same cost (minus a few guys) as an army which is only good at shooting (and where only 1 guy in that unit can do a bit of good close combat) is pretty valuable. IMHO, far more valuable than what it costs you in points.

Even if you take Psyflemen out of the equation, their Dreads are better.
Marine leader = one-off bombardment but (unless they FAQ'd it - I don't know if they did?) GK leaders get it all the time?

For me, too many reasons not to go down the GK (or SW, or BA) route as a Marine player.

[bobafett012]

who cares what other people think about your army? your playing a game to have fun. If you feel grey knights are fun, why would you opt not to play them because other people dislike them?? thats crazy

[Sekhmet]

good for you... but I just feel that GK self contained armies should only show up once and a while, ie. once every 100 years or so or big gaming events where they void their rarity. For me, they should never have been given a full army in the regular game.

that being said, I understand why they did it. To support a plastic line, they need to generate demand to sell lots, to justify the investment. I just don't agree with it.

If you feel that way, all 40k games should be IG/Orks vs IG/Orks, with the occasional Marine allied unit attached to the guard army. Rarely you'll see any other army.

[Mr Zoat]

Marine leader = one-off bombardment but (unless they FAQ'd it - I don't know if they did?) GK leaders get it all the time?

The can buy an Orbital Strike Relay but it isn't that good. BS 5/6 officers with precision shot psycannons are a bit more of an issue.

[Beppo1234]

If you feel that way, all 40k games should be IG/Orks vs IG/Orks, with the occasional Marine allied unit attached to the guard army. Rarely you'll see any other army.

right, but the marine armies function at battle force strength all the time. IMO, Grey Knights were small elite kill teams that travel the galaxy as a squad taking care of the most dangerous threats. When the need is there, they form a self contained coherent army. It's just my opinion that they should never have been given a self contained army, but rather, that they stay as they once were, elite squads dispatched by or attached to the inquisition.

[the_picto]

who cares what other people think about your army? your playing a game to have fun. If you feel grey knights are fun, why would you opt not to play them because other people dislike them?? thats crazy

While it would be nice if this were true, it matters what other people think of your army because they have to want to play against it. You can sit there with your 9 necron flyers saying it's my money and my toy soldiers, but without an opponent what's the point?

[Azulthar]

I agree with the folks who say 6th brought the Grey Knights down to just "top tier". The game is a lot more lethal now. Way more shooting, way more deaths. This does not work out in the GK's favor, who spend their points on extra offense, not defense.

It's easier to get them out of transports. Ignoring stunned/shaken isn't as powerful anymore, as it's about the Hull Points now. It's easier to match their shooting when you can move and fire as well and can add plasma to that. They struggle with 2+ saves in hand-to-hand as much as a normal Marine unit, despite being more expensive. You can even more reliably save your characters from their snipers with the addition of "Look Out Sir"

Small things, most of them, but they add up. Grey Knight are still very powerful, but they have been toned down.

[Still Standing]

Be sure to find opponents who thinks more or less like yourself when it comes to army building, and you'll be allright (but you already knew this, right?)

People advising you to build a nice and fun, fun, fun army, won't be there to hold your hand when top tier tournament armies destroy your expensive (but totally ineffective) army.

My advice: Look to your local gaming scene and try to get a fix on the powerlevel before deciding (unless you really like to lose every single game).

As to the question about GK being masters of 40K? I just resently tabled a tournament class GK army about turn 5, but I was using a Necron Flyer army so.... (until it becomes redundant due to Flakk missiles).

Well if you'd read anything in this thread so far you'd see people calling Necrons the new OP army for 6th, so...