We're currently discussing a house rule in our gaming group, that allows the player(s) that didn't get first turn to claim defensive buffs from a virtual turn zero, stuff like jink saves and perhaps even allow psycic power rolls for Fortune and similar stuff before the game starts.
Just wanted to know, what other people think about it.
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My Warmachine Tactics Intoduction Guide
Originally Posted by Wishing
I wouldn't want that. The second player already knows that he's going second AND where all enemy units (which had to set up blindly) are before he gets to set up (on table and for reserves). He should be able to get significant advantage out of that already.
Awesome. Awesome to the head.
Frankly, I think in many cases that BOTH sides should be able to do this. This is supposed to be the middle of a big battle, these units are not starting a sports match and some ref is going to call them for starting early, they know they are in a fight and they will have been acting accordingly for the past while before the shooting actually starts.
I could very easily see it scenario based, depending on a level of surprise and whatnot.
Once upon a midnight dreary...
As a House Rule if your group wants to try it out I say go for it.
Now if you're asking what other people think about the proposed ruleI think it could end up being highly situational. That is, I can see the oddity of showing up for battle unprepared. Although if one side is being ambushed or it is an unexpected meeting of patrols I can see being caught flat-footed. On the other hand I find it questionable that some of these defensive buffs are always "in use". Does a Farseer run around keeping Fortune on a unit all the time, or is it in response to a combat situation? Do vehicles jink around all the time or only when they are actually under fire? Does the first turn of the game represent that actual moment the battle starts, or do we assume that they've already formed up battle lines at that point and so are ready to fight?
Of course I suppose the easy answer to all the above questions is an across-the-board "at the moment the battle starts units are prepared to fight" so you could apply your rule. I guess the best advice I could give would be simply "try it out and see if it works for you and your group".
At first I thought it was a brillient idea, until I read the first reply and could see that point of view. But, I still think it is a good starting point. I would say that you can catch you opponrnt unprepared often enough to not allow it out right. So I thought for a bit and this idea hit me.
When rolling to seize the initiative, you get to "activate" that many units before your opponent starts his turn. If you roll a 6 though just start as normal.
This will allow you to prepair select units before the game officialy starts but it is also random, and it fits in with the theam of an existing rule. I think that is good enough for a home rule and reduceses the power of a blanked preturn.
I'll think of something appropriate soon enough to put here.
Does the player that went first get a buff for the last turn of the game? If you think you need jink saves for the first turn, most likely you need more terrain.
I fully support this house-rule.
Ehlijen's not right about this issue. Setting up second doesn't nearly make up for going second, and it's not even a guarantee that it's going to go down that way - you can easily end up setting up first and going second (it's called "seizing the initiative" and it's not always on a single roll of a 6 anymore, either).
Would all that long range artillery get extra barrage shots? They have the range, I'm sure they didn't wait until you were the equivalent of 48" away to start bombarding your approaching forces...unless it was a sneak attack and/or the artillery was focusing elsewhere, but that is getting into narrative which I am not sure is there.
That's called "Preliminary Bombardment".
I'm also pretty sure that you wouldn't have sent a roughly equal force to try to eliminate an artillery emplacement from 4 miles away. The fact that the artillery HAS been firing at you is why you are now attacking their 1500 points of artillery with 1500 points of your stuff, rather than the 4000 points that left your base.
The stuff that happens before the game... happens before the game.
I do agree that it is a little weird that everyone has their pants down at the start of the game, but as a balancing factor to the fact that the game has an igo-ugo turn and deployment system, I think it's tolerable. There definitely shouldn't be army-specific compensation packages slotted in later.
It might be interesting to come with a particular scenario which did allow this, though, with deployment and such designed for it from the start. Blind deployment with a screen in the middle of the table is great.
Last edited by Bubble Ghost; 25-07-2012 at 19:33.
Idiots... nothing can live forever.
It just needs a new scenario special rule, something like:
Preliminary Activities
After Seize the Initiative has been rolled, but before the game begins, the player going second may make preliminary activities, this represents the fact that armies don't simply wait around for the battle to start, but are carefully preparing, and moving into their initial positions. Every unit may carry out any action it could normally carry out at the start of their turn or during their Movement or Shooting Phase, subject to the following additional limitations: No model may actually be moved, leave a transport, or placed onto the table in any way; no model may fire any weapon or do any action that targets, damages or directly effects their opponent in any way; no effects that last "until end of turn" or "until end of the Game Turn" may be used (although effects that last until some point in the owning player's next turn are fine). In addition any model may be declared to have moved at any speed it's capable of (including running/turboboosting if it did not make any Shooting Phase action) - remember the models are not actually moved (this is simply the speed they reached their current location) but it may affect special rules (such as Jink) in the first Player Turn.
This would be standard for most mission, but could obviously be left out in a dedicated Ambush scenario.
Obviously needs a bit of work (such as how it interacts with Scouts), but I think the basic idea would work.
No and it's not meant to make up for going second (going last is meant to), but it makes up for not getting defensive buffs. Not knowing where the enemy sets up is a big hindrane to the attacker if he plans on alpha striking. You can also simply reserve fragile but fast stuff and lose little of its damage output.
And sure seizing the initative exists. But it's meant to be a curveball if it happens. (And other than sicarius, what changes it from rolling a 6?).
Background justification:
I've always seen a 40k game starting as akin to the call to go over the top coming to a trench section in WW1. The oppenents were already in basic weapon ranges, but were holding back to save ammo and not expose their strength until the attack is called because both sides know that without a coordinated effort from a higher level of command, it won't achieve anything. So no pointlessly zooming about wasting fuel, no risking deamons eating your face until you know you'll face more than token reminder shots and if you don't want your support elements in the first line of fire, put it behind the lines and call for them as needed.
Awesome. Awesome to the head.
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