Did GW's DoC Flamer nerf go too far?

[jdebelly]

How can they get a -1 to shooting and moving when they're skirmishers... they are still skirmishers, right?

[AngelofSorrow]

Yes they are. Skirmishers are affected by move and shoot penalties.


Ready for eternal war!

[Bodysnatcher]

Shame it kicks my mono-tzeentch in the teeth. Still, I'll need to see the full details before i make a decision either way.

[ewar]

My only gripe is that it's about 4 years too late...

I voted a little too far, but didn't factor in that you can take many more of them now with the shift to special, so I would (if such things were possible) change my vote to fair. Now please, please for the love of all the Dark Powers, double the cost of the Masque...

[The bearded one]

How can they get a -1 to shooting and moving when they're skirmishers... they are still skirmishers, right?

Yes they are. Skirmishers are affected by move and shoot penalties.

The bonus skirmishers have to shooting, is that they can march and fire, but like angelofsorrow says movement penalties still aply to them.

[Artinam]

Why the cries of anguish? I mean come on, the unit was obviously to powerful. They could kill pretty much anything, move and fire D3 shots per model. This wasn't a unit you could throw a warmachine hunter into and expect to stand a chance against it.

[The bearded one]

Shame it kicks my mono-tzeentch in the teeth.

Flamers got a little bit worse, but screamers got waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy better

They could kill pretty much anything, move and fire D3 shots per model.

D6 shots, not D3. Yes, you read that right. This was a unit that could quite often throw 20+ str4 shots your way.

[Maoriboy007]

Do demons still have thier old break system, if so then no Flamers are fine with the changes, especially as special.
They did the same thing to Ghouls as well, depowered them solidly and still put the price up, swordsmen and most of the TK army were fairly mild got depowered and had a price rise, flamers were at least on the higher end of the scale.

And demons are getting war machines now? Perfect.

[The bearded one]

Shame it kicks my mono-tzeentch in the teeth.

Flamers got a little bit worse, but screamers got waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy better

They could kill pretty much anything, move and fire D3 shots per model.

D6 shots, not D3. Yes, you read that right. This was a unit that could quite often throw 20+ str4 shots your way.

[Bodysnatcher]

Just glad I have a lot of screamers too...

[Daedalus81]

The nerfs bring them back to being inline with everything else. The extra 5 points is for warpflame.

[Nubl0]

I think it might have been a little too much. Yes they were very powerful for a bs based shooting unit, but I didn't find them broken. More like every other bs based shooting unit is rather lackluster these days. In 7th they were scary as people had much smaller units, not so in 8th.

[Bodysnatcher]

I always thought the high S was to make up for the inability to flee as compared to other similar units.

[The bearded one]

I always thought the high S was to make up for the inability to flee as compared to other similar units.

I thought that was what the 2 wounds, T4, 5+ wardsave and 2 initiative 4 attacks were for..

[Confessor_Atol]

This kick in the pants couldn't have happened to a more deserving group of eather-creatures. While it's harsh, I don't think it's out of line. Put me down for "fair".

[Jericho]

It's way too late, but they sure did kick a lot of ass stats-wise for a shooting unit. Maybe a bit less of an auto-include now.

10021201012% agree on the Masque btw. Way too cheap considering what a Ld-bomb army can do to many armies out there.

[Flying_Flaming_Moose]

I'd say fair, the unit was disgusting under the old rules - and i'm speaking from a tzeentch nut head. I would like to have a game with daemons when i don't have to shake my head at the stupidity of the flamer choice - either using them or playing against them.

[Wesser]

It's in line with the trend

Empire Shooting got butchered too. GW is slowly phasing Ballistic skill out of the game

[Phazael]

The current ones compare pretty unfavorably to Lead Beltchers, who are hardly ever taken. The only role they served in my army was as a flank support and minor shooting thread. That won't change much, but seriously the 2+ flaming ward saves and new emphasis on large units pretty much dealt with them already. Guess I will run more solo fiends in their place....

[Gaargod]

Flamers were always my definition of underpriced and overpowered.

Underpriced is obvious. This mostly applies to their shooting - throwing out 18" D6 S4 (flaming) shots in and of itself isn't a problem. The problem is that its on a 35pts model with good manoeuvrability - that's just underpriced, and they should have been closer to 50pts than 30pts.

Overpowered is their combat ability. They're clearly meant as a close/medium range support squad which isn't designed for combat - compare skink skirmishers, for example. Yet Flamers are ridiculously hardcore compared at S5 T4 A2 I4 (slightly let down by Ws2). Most combat warmachine/support hunters are just going to utterly fail against them.