Dragons and demon princes

[TheDungen]

Lo folks, so here's my question do you think a dragon could become a demon prince?

Look at it this was before saying no:

1. dragons are intelligent creatures with free will.

2. demon hood is offered to beings with free will to make them serve the dark gods.

3. dragons are somewhat resistant to the mutating forces of chaos (the only mutant dragon we've seen was possessed so it doesn't really count, chaos dragons were born that way so they're really more of a sub spieces than mutants)thus less prone to spawndom.

4. a demon prince is just a mortal soul empowered by a chaos god so it can exist on its own in the realm of chaos.


I see no real reason that a dragons soul could not be empowered in such a way. Yes affecting a much larger creature would probably require vastly more chaos energy than doing i to a mortal. (as we've seen that even elves require a lot more chaos energy to become demon princess).

oh and an additional though what if a champion riding a dragon were granted demonhood and the dark goods merged his spirit with that of his dragon granting them both 'immortality'.

[Ultimate Life Form]

Well... I wouldn't rule it out completely. I'd just say it's very, very unlikely.

Out of millions of Chaos worshippers, only a select few ever ascended to DP status. You must be really awesome in order to be chosen. Now what are the chances even if a Dragon were converted to Chaos that he would also be among the chosen? Probably about 0%, but seeing how GW likes to make everything epic they'll probably make it 99%. Oh well.

But I see it more akin to Dragon Ogres perhaps. They put emphasis on the fact that they are allies of Chaos, not its servants. If even Dragon Ogres are so la-di-da, how much more must a noble Dragon value its freedom and independence. Allies of Chaos, yes; worshippers of Chaos... not so much.

[The bearded one]

Plus, it's not really that much of an increase of their powers They can tear the head off any daemon prince in their mortal forms anyway.

[Urgat]

Her, well, I suppose it could be possible, but dragons don't seem to like chaos much. Chaos dragons are kind of a forced deal. I already can't fathom why they accept to serve elves in the first place anyway.

Now what are the chances even if a Dragon were converted to Chaos that he would also be among the chosen? Probably about 0%, but seeing how GW likes to make everything epic they'll probably make it 99%. Oh well.

Well, I'd agree with GW on this one. If demonhood is achieved through potential and deeds, no doubt the dragon would come first, like, every time, compared to random marauder n°17024.

[TheDungen]

i just had this cool idea for a demon prince in a draconic form (I have this thing for non standard forms of demon princes) and needed fluff to justify it. How does the warrior of chaos on dragon gets morphed into one being with his dragon as he ascends to demonhood? is the gods of chaos even able to do that to such a powerful being without its consent (and I have a heard time seeing even a chaos dragon giving its consent to that).

as for serving the elves Caledor enslaved them by magic then adjusted their position as slaves to a partnership at a later stage. they're still not entirely free as shown in Caledor. there are words of power that can force them to obey.

[Ultimate Life Form]

Chaos doesn't ask for permission. It just fuses. Especially when the polar gates act up again. This explanation would be good enough for me.

[Scalebug]

Liking the idea of a champion being fused to his mount as part of his final gifts during ascencion to daemonhood.

As for a dragon on its own being a daemon prince, or champion leading up to that... there seems to be something about humanity that interests the chaos gods, something that makes them more valuable to invest power in and eventually raising up, compared to other species. Fluff wise, we don't really see much in canon on non-human champions, for example the closest thing to an elf daemon prince(ss) is Dechala, with rules in 5th edition, and I think mentioned in passing then and again since, with things like the Anointed in the Cult of pleasure list for SoC being closer to the Daemonhost concept, a Daemon bound in the flesh of an ancient Slaanesh-worshipping elf.

Then we have things like the Fimir, who used to be favoured by the gods before humanity got out of their caves and were found to be better worshippers, or the mention back in third ed how the gods started to favour the humans over the disorganised worship done by the greenskin (though to be fair, this was before Gork and Mork were introduced, and long before we learned that the Orcs arrived as stowaways with the Old Ones... so that piece takes a bit of shoe-horning to fit into the current day background...)

The goto fantasy trope in these kind of situation is the old humans having a limited lifespan, and this breeds a desperation that makes them willing to strike deals with various powers in a way that an Elf, Dwarf or Dragon would not "need" to.

[TheDungen]

I'm pretty sure the annionted were elves blessed to the point where they would've risen to demonhood if they were human but that it took more to rise elves sicne they are resistant to mutation.

page 81 of SoC book, no mention of possession.

[snottlebocket]

There's two big problems with this. The first is motivation. The reason most chaos followers are human is because humans are the most tempted by quick and easy power. Dwarves and Elves live too long to worry about such things. Chaos dwarves and dark elves are happy to make use of chaos but too smart to barter their soul away most of the time. The more brutish races are too involved with their own affairs and have too much faith in their own gods to turn to chaos. And undeath is the complete antithesis of chaos.

Dragons are the most powerful, longest lived species in the warhammer world as well as being tremendously intelligent. They are probably the least likely creature to turn to chaos in the entire warhammer world.

The second thing is that becoming a demonprince isn't really a reward. This is part of the original chaos lore that's not mentioned much anymore. But the chaos gods pretty much can't even tell and really don't care about the difference between a beneficial mutation and a debilitating one. While demonhood is most certainly seen as a reward by chaos followers, it's not given as one. Achieving demonhood is mostly a case of surviving all the other mutations without turning to spawn until you hit the jackpot. Something that is pretty tricky considering the more you grab the attention of the chaos gods, the more mutations you'll get.

Back in the day chaos was described as a fast track to power. Failed as a wizard? Pray for a darker source of knowledge. Village dying due to a plague? Promise your soul to papa Nurgle. Can't keep your rage in check or bored with your pampered life? There's a cult for that. Mortals and mostly humans at that turned to chaos for a staggering variety of reasons but all with the same goal. Quick and easy power. It's a simple bargain, promise your soul to chaos and you will get power. Maybe not how you imagined but you will get it.

Pretty soon you'd receive your first mutation to mark you as the property of some god. Won't be long now before you can no longer hide in society. After that it happens pretty quickly. Join a warband, go on a killing spree, try to run North. Nobody cares. You'll either die a hard death or you'll survive somehow. If you survive it probably means you're a hard bastard and you'll catch your god's eye sooner or later which means more mutations and more power.

From then on it's really simple. You're already a mutant. There's only three outcomes left. Die for whatever reason. Muddle on in mediocrity as some sort of chaos minion. Excel and catch the attention of your god(s). And attention means mutations. Survive those long enough and you might turn into a demon. More likely you'll just end up with too many mutations. Grow fangs, mandibles, disturbing heads or whatever and you won't even be able to speak. Suffer so many debilitating mutations that you can no longer walk like a man. You don't speak like a man, you don't look like a man, how long will it be before you forget you were ever human? That's not even considering mutations of the mind. Most champions devolve into irrational gibbering hulks of mutations that fail to entertain their gods and are forgotten to die in ignomy.

And the most important part: it doesn't take long. The old slaves to darkness book is the original tome on chaos. It tells the story of two brothers, one who pledges himself to Slaanesh and the other who pledges himself to Khorne. It charts their journey from the moment they are outed in society to the day when one dies a monstrous drooling creature and the other suffers a bloody rebirth and emerges a screaming demon lord. Took them less than a year. You either stand out or die.

Dragons don't need the power, they don't need the immortality and they're far too intelligent and proud to need or consider the messy promise of power chaos offers.

[Ultimate Life Form]

So this leads to the question... are Chaos Spawns sometimes accidentally elevated to daemonhood?

But a great read, really!

[Urgat]

i just had this cool idea for a demon prince in a draconic form (I have this thing for non standard forms of demon princes) and needed fluff to justify it. How does the warrior of chaos on dragon gets morphed into one being with his dragon as he ascends to demonhood? is the gods of chaos even able to do that to such a powerful being without its consent (and I have a heard time seeing even a chaos dragon giving its consent to that).

Well, they might be able to, but Galrauch shows that dragons are a bit difficult in that regard, it certainly wasn't a big success, the dragon/greater demon fusion.

[TheDungen]

except thousands of marauders worship chaos without ever getting a mutation, i would guess that the same applies to most cultists.

And yes dark elves make bargains instead but they still increase their power which actually means they have more control over the gifts they are given, most of them chose ethernal life as elves instead of demonhood though. This we're shown in the Sundering trilogy.
However the existence of annionted tells us some of them either seek demonhood or lose control of their bargains at some point. Of coure it takes them many thousand years to get there instead of less than a years, but i think the brothers you mentioned are kind of quick we've heard of many chaos lords who've spend years trying to achieve demonhood.

[Lord Zarkov]

The marauders aren't all mutated (although many of them are) because while they worship Chaos they haven't all started down the Path to Glory - most worship the Gods as a fact of life rather than a route to selfish glory, and those that do tend to end up getting mutated (see Scyla for example).

Cultists tend to get mutated a lot quicker (see the book The Enemy Within for an example, or even Trollslayer), although they are more likely to be doing bad things with Warpstone for example which kind of accelerates things.

[snottlebocket]

except thousands of marauders worship chaos without ever getting a mutation, i would guess that the same applies to most cultists.

And yes dark elves make bargains instead but they still increase their power which actually means they have more control over the gifts they are given, most of them chose ethernal life as elves instead of demonhood though. This we're shown in the Sundering trilogy.
However the existence of annionted tells us some of them either seek demonhood or lose control of their bargains at some point. Of coure it takes them many thousand years to get there instead of less than a years, but i think the brothers you mentioned are kind of quick we've heard of many chaos lords who've spend years trying to achieve demonhood.

That's a relatively recent thing really. Originally almost all mortal chaos followers were citizens of the old world. And they choose chaos because chaos was the quick and easy option. Chaos itself has near unlimited power and the one thing they crave is mortal souls. So chaos was willing to make great promises in return for the pledge of one's soul. You don't have to dedicate a lifetime to the study of magic when Tzeentch can send you a demonic familiar to whisper secrets to you. You don't have to die of starvation and plague, Nurgle can make you immune for the mere cost of your soul.

Ofcourse the promise is a hollow one and most followers die a hard death under an open sky. The life is too hard, too dangerous to make good on that promise. If you don't stand out, odds are you'll die on some god forsaken battlefield. If you do excel, you get showered with mutations by gods who don't care if you can survive the proces.

Dark Elves and Chaos dwarves have more knowledge and less desperation than short lived humans. They know better than to bargain their bodies and souls to the dark powers, but they're more than happy to commit vile acts for lesser bargains.

As for marauders. Up until the 5th edition Chaos had this incredibly rich background of attracting followers from all walks of life. It made chaos very diverse and incredibly tragic. But around the 5th GW started their big unification push. Armies needed a coherent theme and chaos suffered the most from that. The army was split up into 3 separate armies and chaos mortals got turned into a homogenic horde of conan the barbarian clones.

The idea that chaos mortals are mostly drawn from the hordes of Northern marauders came out of nowhere and is mostly the result of wanting to unify the visual image of chaos models.

So this leads to the question... are Chaos Spawns sometimes accidentally elevated to daemonhood?

But a great read, really!

Not really. Spawns are basically champions who fell apart under the influence of their many mutations. At that point they're no longer highly motivated and driven champions for the cause of chaos but confused beasts aimlessly milling about. Not really something that catches the eyes of the gods for further elevation. Spawn are the living trash left behind when the gods get bored with a champion.

[Ultimate Life Form]

The idea that chaos mortals are mostly drawn from the hordes of Northern marauders came out of nowhere and is mostly the result of wanting to unify the visual image of chaos models.

Oh yeah, and don't let us forget Goat- ... eh, sorry, I mean Beastmen. I'm always waiting for these horse- or flyheaded Beatsmen to pop up that the background insists are existing, but instead all we get is animal farm all over again. It's probably because bad guys need a goatee. WoC models are about a hundred times more interesting and diverse than that.

[snottlebocket]

Oh yeah, and don't let us forget Goat- ... eh, sorry, I mean Beastmen. I'm always waiting for these horse- or flyheaded Beatsmen to pop up that the background insists are existing, but instead all we get is animal farm all over again. It's probably because bad guys need a goatee. WoC models are about a hundred times more interesting and diverse than that.

I remember beastmen models with goat, bull, pig, bird, tiger, camel, tortoise heads at the very least. As well as some stranger ones like tiny heads, a hand for a head, fish head, shapeless head and things like demon headed beastmen.

[Lord Zarkov]

I remember beastmen models with goat, bull, pig, bird, tiger, camel, tortoise heads at the very least. As well as some stranger ones like tiny heads, a hand for a head, fish head, shapeless head and things like demon headed beastmen.

And of course the infamous Phallus headed beastman.


With regards to Chaos Mortal armies - I think the actual Chaos Warriors are still just as likely to be southerners. In the recent books featuring marauder tribes there have been basically zero Chaos Warriors, and the only Chaos Champions are the hero of the book (e.g. Valkia or Wulfric, the former of which isn't really one until near the end). The most powerful character tends to be a Marauder Chieftain or his warleader.

However there have been tons of southerner Chaos Champions - the one from that short story with the Captains Morgan; Azazel; all the cultists in books set in the Empire; even Archaon himself; and that's just recently. It was only during Storm of Chaos that you got large tribes of Marauders led by Chaos Warriors, but again the ones that sought blessings for personal power tended to end up mutated (most of the Chaos characters seemed to be mutated in Riders of the Dead for example).

[TheDungen]

when old fluff contradicts the new one the new one wins out its as simple as that. And while i like the chaoticness of chaos i also think that warhammer and warhammer 40k would benefit from sleeper agents kind of like the darkfriends on the wheel of time.

[snottlebocket]

when old fluff contradicts the new one the new one wins out its as simple as that. And while i like the chaoticness of chaos i also think that warhammer and warhammer 40k would benefit from sleeper agents kind of like the darkfriends on the wheel of time.

I disagree. Almost all fluff is based on rewriting and regurgitating past fluff. Gw has no interest in advancing the fluff and finds it next to impossible to write anything new that isn't contradictory. Most contradictions that they do write tend to get ignored, contradicted or retconned next time they touch the subject.

In short gw doesn't really advance the fluff as much as just screwing it up or getting it wrong before back paddling. Odd as it may sound, the only way to deal with gw writing is to ignore everything after about 1994 or so. That's about the time they started screwing up the legacy left to them by their betters.

There's no point dealing with gw stuff chronologically since they're still basing it on the original material, they just can't figure out how to keep it consistent. They can't even manage to keep their additions consistent. When it comes to gw fluff, older is correct.

[Quinzy]

You can either have the fluff you like, or the current fluff. But anything contradicted by more recent official sources wins out.
Don't get me wrong, you can cherrypick to your hearts desire, that's your prerogative, and your own interpretation is as valid as the next, but post-1994 fluff is concerned, it's as valid, if not more valid, than the older fluff.