blackcherryWell I'm all for it. Anything that makes games of 40k more fun is ok with me. If it gets into some of the larger tournaments, expect validation by the rest soon enough.
Well I'm all for it. Anything that makes games of 40k more fun is ok with me. If it gets into some of the larger tournaments, expect validation by the rest soon enough.
^This is why parts of GW may not like the internet^Originally Posted by On the subject of Jervis Johnson.
I have a plog now! Now with actual painted models
You deserve some, I don't play Nids and this is the part of 6th that bothers me the most, that said maybe the next nid book breaks the FoC a bit for them.
Its the rules, but more than anything forgeworld just isn't something most people can buy over the counter (at least in the states) I mean we can get the books but thats it for the most part. Stores will start allowing forgeworld more when they start to get a cut.
Yeah I think so, cause fliers are a major fear right now and fw having answers keeps people happy until GW catches the other fractions up.
General games where I usually play they are allowed. In certain tournaments not even models are allowed as substitute for GW stuff.
Nice to see some sfinkters finally starting to loosen over FW units. we have been using them for years in our LGS. the addage is simple-
If GW makes it your allowed to use it. and since GW owns FW (located within the world HQ of GW no less) it has never been an issue for us. just bring the rules with you. it adds a slew of interesting units and freshness to the game.
You do realise that superheavies can be used in normal games via the superheavy detachment rules right?The only thing that used to prevent me from allowing lists without warning was flyers and super heavies. That has now been fixed nicely with flyers now in 6th ed and super heavies being limited to APOC. Over all very happy.
It also helps to do away with the entire D weapon catagory they created just for apocalypse. going back to the "made for games of 40K" rules makes them quite manageable in non-apacalypse games Ie turbo lasers are a S9 AP2 small (3") blast in the original rules and got turned into a 5" D template when they made apocalypse.
Last edited by mughi3; 27-07-2012 at 11:51.
I've always been a massive fan of FW and I'm happy that we now seem to be moving into a time when there is more acceptance for the models. The issues surrounding their use are slowly being broken down, such as the already mentioned Flyers and Super Heavy rules. The arguments against some of them being over-powered have been made less solid by the likes of Grey Knights and with rumours abound that we could start seeing some of their units appearing in GW stores means that they will be accessible. And the "not knowing the rules" argument has again already been covered in this thread - unless you have every codex committed to memory, you won't know all the rules.
I'll admit that I'm not much of a tournament player so my arguments are coming from a purely "friendly gamer" but I've always loved seeing painted up FW models on the battlefield so I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing a few more as 6th pans out.
Maybe I am in the minority, but I don't own all the army books. Of all the IG tanks and heavy support I probably know 1-2 entries. There is a good chance in any codex I am unfamiliar with one entry or another. I rely on my opponent to fill me in on what his units can do during the game. If I ask something, I just expect a simple answer, nothing that detracts or stalls the game. If I bring say a Hornet to the game, does it really stall or flaw the game for me to turn to my opponent and say "dual pulse lasers (which are in the main eldar codex) and outflank", armor 10" Forgeworld has actually made it easy by bringing all their rules in alignment with the main rulebook, so rarely will you ever have a rule which isn't in there. I just don't see the problem with using Forgeworld, especially with their streamlined rules.
I suppose because some people like to memorize every book and feel that they are at a 'disadvantage' if they are suddenly up against a unit they haven't memorized yet.
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Or, you know, it could be that some people find it rude when their opponent springs a titan or superheavy on them when they weren't expecting it without so much as a "by your leave" because, apparently, not genially accepting this and allowing yourself to be subjected to Strength D 10" templates or whatever random crud FW has come up with most recently that you weren't even aware existed is amounts to being uptight.
Personally, I think that assuming your opponent has designed his or her list with the notion that they might have to deal with whatever FW thing you have, or that they ought to accept having to deal with things that have capabilities they weren't even aware existed within the scope of the game they thought they'd be playing, evinces a certain inappropriate sense of entitlement, and that the polite thing to do would be to ask their permission and have a backup list ready in case they denied it. Sorry, but I'm not building lists and asking myself "can this deal with two Warhounds?" or something; I am asking myself "can this deal with multiple AV14 vehicles", but that's really a different cup of tea, and equating the two is absurd; much worse, I am vaguely aware of what a Warhound can do, but in all likelihood FW will release something within a two weeks that I have not the slightest clue about, and keep on doing so over and over again.
In other words, for pickup games, I'm still pretty firm on the idea that they require permission, and am likely to deny that permission unless someone asks a good while before the game, so that I can at least make a list with it in mind.
Obviously if you've agreed beforehand that FW stuff will be allowed in your games, there is no issue, and you can talk that over with people, but to find it objectionable that anyone might disagree is ... well, flatly, it's insisting that people play the way you want to play, and that the way they want to play is "wrong". We may say that everything requires an opponent's permission in some sense, and this is true, but tacit permission is obviously given when playing Warhammer 40K to use anything in a current-version Warhammer 40K codex (the rulebook talks about codexes, and how you need them, for one thing), barring exceptional circumstances, e.g. you've agreed to play a fluff scenario involving special restrictions; I really don't see that the same holds true for using anything in a FW supplement, especially when it's randomly thrown in without regard for what army it should belong to or where it fits in a FoC. Ally rules don't change this; they are in the BRB; FW rules are not, nor is it suggested that FW supplements are rules you need to play the game, whereas this is said of codexes--and the fact that not everyone is going to buy every codex is a red herring in the argument, because that really isn't the point.
How Flayed Ones infiltrate:
The argument of "I've never faced one so how do I compete" is weak.
We're discussing it on an internet forum which posts the latest forgeworld rules and models the second they go on the site.
If people are THAT competitive that they own all the codexes and know the rules of each inside and out, they should take that little extra time to learn the rules of forgeworld stuff too, it's not like they have a catalogue of a million models to learn on top of the GW stuff.
Personally I ask about codexes that I've played against 100 times, if my opponent expects me to know a codex that I don't play inside and out then they are pretty odd in my book. So a forgeworld miniature is just another cool thing to face on the table.
Edit to add: Obviously I mean 40k stamped units or those clearly intended for 40k.
Last edited by Kijamon; 27-07-2012 at 16:14.
But that right there is the problem. If someone does that to you, he's being a part of the male anatomy.
Using FW units stamped with the 40k stamp should be perfectly fine, they are overpriced for what they do and do nothing that normal codex unit can't do. Stuff like titans and the like DO NOT have this stamp, they are intended for Apocalypse only.
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Oh, you mean, that thing you can only do if you've already agreed to play an Apocalypse game?
FW != Apocalypse.
The new airunits for the orcs are not in the codex so they are not allowed? This is similar to 40k appoved.
Also the new Marine airship is not in the codex (except for those with the Ipad codex). So can I bring it only if you own an Ipad?
This is going to occur more and more with new WD items.
The Hydra is in the condex but only produced by forgeworld. Can I use it?
Not sure where in the US you play but majority of the people I play with love the idea when a new toy is on the table. (we do like it more when we kill the shiney new toy than when it defeats us.)
Which, if you're following the rules for such vehicles, you can't actually do, and could never do. Strength D is a GW core design studio invention, in fact, GW's rules for titans are far more powerful (and cheaper) than anything FW put out. FW superheavies used to require a 2nd FoC to field, I don't believe those rules exist anymore and thus are very clearly fieldable only in Apocalypse games (as they don't have a place in a normal FoC).
The idea that someone will just drop a titan if FW is allowed is ridiculous, you can't, and never could, do that.
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Indeed. There is a large difference between Titans and Super-Heavies and regular FW units. One would not be using super heavies in normal games of 40k anyway barring both players wanted to and agreed to it beforehand.
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I'm glad that the barriers between normal 40k and FW is coming down, since I plan on picking up a Contemptor, 2 Demios Pattern Predator Executioner and convert a Storm Eagle for my DA army. Becasue I'm doing a DA army that I can include all the stuff above since they're a founding chapter and have a thing for plasma based weaponry. I don't the units above are OP... I've been told I'm wasting my money with the Contemptor since walkers have become 'weaker' since 6th but I love the model
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Hehe, you do. Monstrous Creatures. Which are so very WIN in 6th
You really don't think anyone might try to justify it, in an environment where FW is permitted in general, especially now that playing 2k actually does get you a second FoC? That seems charitable; but I'm talking about pickup games primarily, with people you might not know all that well; of course a friend in your gaming group probably isn't going to do anything that you truly find objectionable, involving FW rules or otherwise--or, when you object, they'll nicely stop doing it, provided you're being remotely reasonable--but I see some people trying to stretch the rules or "creatively interpret" them, or who just plain don't know them well and invent things to fill the gaps which tend to benefit them in a given game, plenty as it is. Now it is true that you can always refuse to play someone, but the price one has to pay for the convenience of going down to the LGS at a random time with their army looking for a game is that sometimes you have to put up with a little more. It's just that I think creating a sense that FW is fair game at all times is going to give the people who already do a few slightly frustrating things from time to time, which aren't enough to make a big deal out of or even start any sort of argument over, a lot more opportunities to be dodgy, I guess.
So to be clear I should say that it really does depend upon the environment you're playing in. If it's a close-knit group, it's easier to be more permissive in a number of ways: For one thing you can have house rules, and I'd argue that allowing FW kind of amounts to one, and for another you're just going to be nicer to each other and less likely to be more concerned with improving your win/loss ratio than with keeping things fun for everyone. Unfortunately that's just not an environment that I do or can play in--I get small-ish tournaments (albeit with prizes, which can bring out bad traits in people) and pickup games, for the most part, and once in a while a game with someone who is actually a friend. This makes me much less favorable towards allowing more stuff into the game which, even if you think FW generally produces good rules (and I don't, really; some are good, but some are awful), you have to admit increases the chances that something broken or open to abuse is going to slip through simply by the principle that the more rules involved in something, the more messed up rules will be involved, because some percentage of any rules produced by anyone will be imbalanced out of inevitable human error. And the balanced rules do not make up for the bad; if something is OP its negative effect on a metagame or environment is not mitigated by other things produced by the same company being balanced, because the people who want to abuse broken rules will just take the OP and ignore the rest.
And, also to be fair, it depends on the thing someone is using and whether it's spammed or not (which highly suggests the player is using it for advantage because FW let something slip through the cracks). If someone shows up with a couple of those big FW battlesuits in their Tau army, for example, I wouldn't object; I'm not a jerk, honestly. If someone shows up with an army comprised more of FW units than not, and I have no idea what any of it does, I'm somewhat likely to turn down the game, though, and especially so if any of it is enormous and/or flying; it's not guaranteed that anything will be wrong, but for one thing a lot of the time is going to be spent with that player explaining rules to me, which I really don't want for either of us, and for another it just strikes me as a massive gamble of two hours or so. It's not that the fact that I don't know what the stuff does makes me feel at a disadvantage, in other words, but that the fact that I haven't the foggiest whether it is remotely balanced or not (and excessively weak rules can make the game just as un-fun as excessively powerful rules) makes me reluctant to commit time to dealing with it.
Also, I will confess that I find formulating a plan before games begin and following that through as much as possible to be a fairly important aspect to playing competitively or semi-competitively, and not knowing someone's army at all prevents that. I can surmise that some huge monster is good in close combat, for example, but is it more like a Tyrannofex, a Carnifex, a Trygon, or a Tervigon? All of those do very different things but in terms of appearance are, well, big gribbly things. I'll stand by my claim that it's not that I feel this puts me at a competitive disadvantage; it just removes one of the aspects of the game that I find interesting and fun and makes it more random and more about chucking dice, because I'm probably "just winging it" with regards to FW stuff.
(Core GW produces imbalanced rules, sometimes, too, of course, but if that's the case I at least generally know how bad they are and can judge whether an army will simply roflstomp mine no matter what I do, or vice versa, and roughly how hard at that, before the game begins, and based on that decide whether to play or not--I'll take an uphill battle but not an impossible one to win--because I have time to keep with codexes; everyone talks about them a great deal and I'll have played against them, and seen most units they feature, within a little while after their release, and they won't change for a long time after that. I don't have time to keep with every FW publication, nor even most, nor the money to buy them.)
Those WD rules are produced by the same people who produce codexes, so I think they're certainly a different bag of chips than FW rules, which are made by different people altogether--I know mughi has stated that they collaborate, but how are we to know to what extent?--and you answered your own question on the Hydra; it's in the codex. The model is not the issue; the rules are. If someone is using FW models to count-as in-codex things I would never complain, nor about scratchbuilds, nor about non-GW-model substitutions. That leads into your next point: Yeah, sure, I like seeing new things on the table as much as anyone, but I think it's entirely possible to constantly be putting new things on the table without ever using FW rules. FW Imperial fliers? Count them as Valkyries, Vendettas, Stormravens, or Stormtalons, for example, and you should get no complaints, as long as you state what is what before the game.
As for seeing new rules pop into being (from my perspective), no, I actually don't like that, unless it's an edition change or update to an old codex
Last edited by Aluinn; 27-07-2012 at 20:30.
How Flayed Ones infiltrate:
I think you are missing the point. Stuff with the 40k approved stamp is allowed in regular games, stuff with the Apoc stamp is not. Guess what has the Apoc stamp? Titans and Superheavies. There is no room to "creatively interpret" the rules. Period.
My painting log, Alaitoc Eldar and Dark Angels:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...89#post5897489
Yeah its pretty blatant that super heavies are APOC ONLY.
Most (all) people I know that object to forgeworld also do so on the grounds that they can't pre-plan.Also, I will confess that I find formulating a plan before games begin and following that through as much as possible to be a fairly important aspect to playing competitively or semi-competitively, and not knowing someone's army at all prevents that. I can surmise that some huge monster is good in close combat, for example, but is it more like a Tyrannofex, a Carnifex, a Trygon, or a Tervigon? All of those do very different things but in terms of appearance are, well, big gribbly things. I'll stand by my claim that it's not that I feel this puts me at a competitive disadvantage; it just removes one of the aspects of the game that I find interesting and fun and makes it more random and more about chucking dice, because I'm probably "just winging it" with regards to FW stuff.
But I do not understand this notion as if my opponent shows up with this stuff I ask to read the rules. After five or ten minutes of reading the rules I know exactly what that unit / model does and can plan accordingly.
The only thing it prevents me from doing is sitting at home optimizing my list against my opponent the night before. The day of the game I can easily become educated with anything forgeworld if the players are mandated to bring the rules with them.
In our league environments here we know forge world is accepted and erego we know that our opponents are free to bring those units so need to plan accordingly. I will say though its as simple as emailing/texting my opponent and asking if he owns any of the forgeworld units.
Last edited by IcedCrow; 27-07-2012 at 20:33.
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From what Aluinn is describing, it sounds like the issue is to do with comfort levels. Units that are present in codexes or WD generally get a lot of attention, everyone talks about them and know what they do, because a new codex is a Big Thing and so is one of the rare WD codex additions. New FW releases are generally not a Big Thing and their rules don't get as much attention and don't get talked about so much. Just talking generally here. But the point is that most players are familiar with codex options and not so familiar with FW options.
Aluinn is describing that he plays in an environment with people who aren't his friends and where tournaments can bring out the worst in people. In an environment like that, I can totally understand why players would prefer to just play against things they are familiar with and which are well known and agreed on on the scene. Having to deal with weird stuff that people have never heard of before with weird FW rules may just be another stress factor in an already stressful gaming environment.
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