Vampire Counts- Protecting the unprotectable?

[BigbyWolf]

So, after several false starts I've dropped back to my original love and reinstated Konrad von Carstein as the top dog in my army. The 8th edition army book rather unfairly forces me to have a magic user in the army, so I've had to introduce a level 1 necromancer into the list. Also, we now lack the regen-banner, so Konrad, at best, has a 5+ AS, T4 and 2 wounds.

Not ideal, given that things can now "step up" and although he has a lot of attacks, it's highly unlikely that he will be able to stop everyone from hitting him.

So, I need some suggestions on how to keep him alive, and as an extension, the necromancer too.

As a rough guide, the major part of my army looks roughly like this at the moment:

Konrad
Necromancer

Big unit of Ghouls
Big unit of Grave Guard
Big unit of Black Knights
2 Varghulfs
Hexwraiths
Dogs

I can throw in most other things, apart from any more magic. Any suggestions?

Here are a couple of ideas and issues I've had:

Centre of the line- standing next to a character in the Nightshroud. On the plus side, it keeps him in the centre, probably the Grave Guard, and lets his aura help out other units movement. On the downside, step up attacks are a risk.

Bunkered- A truly foolish idea, this guy is made to kill, hiding him is pointless.

With a fast-moving unit- Now, where Konrad truly excels is killing big things or expensive things. Putting him in a unit that can manoeuvre well might be a good bet, perhaps some Black Knights, or dogs (his M is 6, so he won't restrict them too much), or even Crypt Horrors. The major drawback with this is that it will more than likely be away from the main part of the army, slowing them down.

I'd welcome any and all suggestions on how to help him out, maybe there are some combinations I haven't thought of, please feel free to throw any ideas out.

EDIT: Apart from "Running an army that way is a silly idea, and you're a lunatic." I'm fully aware that it's a silly way to run the army, and I am a lunatic.

[SimaoSegunda]

You didn't say what points limit you're playing to? Have you considered sticking a Wight King in the unit with him? Also, even though you're not focussing much on magic, having him close enough to the Necromancer to (potentially) benefit from the Lore Attribute would be useful.

Instead of Grave Guard, how about skellies? He can do the damage, they can give the combat res. bonuses, and provide a meat shield to keep him safe from firepower as much as possible. Alternatively, consider the Screaming Banner in his unit - He'll be far less worried by opponents at WS1, although maybe not as useful if you plan to send him in against the enemy elites.

He's a little bit of a glass cannon, although he should be able to chew through most low-medium level enemy characters, and issuing a challenge can actually help keep him safe. Assuming he kills whoever he's fighting, he can get overkill bonuses, and is safe from return attacks while in a challenge.

[Malorian]

SimaoSegunda is right.

Fast as he is he needs to be in infantry to get look out sir, and the ghouls could be the best place for him. Ghouls are your fastest unit and may be able to crush the attacker before they even get to go. I would then get the screaming banner in with a wight king bsb who can also take dangerous charges away.

Konrad should also be on the edge of the unit and make sure to take advantage of the offset charge to reduce the attacks back even more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ3ruCQCiYA

[GrandmasterWang]

Great to see you going back to Konrad (loved your battle reports)

I think the night shroud idea is a good one.

[NitrosOkay]

There's some very compelling fluff reasons to force you to have a magic user. Konrad in the books had to bribe or bully Necromancers into building his army for him or he'd have no army!

[Soundwave]

This is great to see an army with heart! Pretty well balanced design the only thing that seems to be missing is maybe the zombie or skeleton chaff to throw(i like to say shoot) in a bus formation that you can tie down a unit that has crept up on you fast and your not ready to deal with yet! Positioning is ever so vital with most undead,and this requires time,although can backfire if the unit melts and overrun occurs.p.s cheers to silly lunatics,i am one also!

[ArghaBlargh]

You could use the Fearbomb setup to reduce the risks to Konrad. People don't tend to hit much when they're at WS1. So, Screaming Banner, and a support Vampire with Fear Incarnate and Aura of Dark Majesty could help.

PS. I LOVED your Konrad battlereports!

[BigbyWolf]

You didn't say what points limit you're playing to? Have you considered sticking a Wight King in the unit with him? Also, even though you're not focussing much on magic, having him close enough to the Necromancer to (potentially) benefit from the Lore Attribute would be useful.

Instead of Grave Guard, how about skellies? He can do the damage, they can give the combat res. bonuses, and provide a meat shield to keep him safe from firepower as much as possible. Alternatively, consider the Screaming Banner in his unit - He'll be far less worried by opponents at WS1, although maybe not as useful if you plan to send him in against the enemy elites.

He's a little bit of a glass cannon, although he should be able to chew through most low-medium level enemy characters, and issuing a challenge can actually help keep him safe. Assuming he kills whoever he's fighting, he can get overkill bonuses, and is safe from return attacks while in a challenge.

Sorry, points are usually between 2000-2.4. I hadn't considered the Screaming banner, I like that idea.

SimaoSegunda is right.

Fast as he is he needs to be in infantry to get look out sir, and the ghouls could be the best place for him. Ghouls are your fastest unit and may be able to crush the attacker before they even get to go. I would then get the screaming banner in with a wight king bsb who can also take dangerous charges away.

Konrad should also be on the edge of the unit and make sure to take advantage of the offset charge to reduce the attacks back even more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ3ruCQCiYA

It also helps make the Ghoul unit a little tougher, but it does mean the BSB is required. That's fair enough, he would have had a body guard anyway.

There's some very compelling fluff reasons to force you to have a magic user. Konrad in the books had to bribe or bully Necromancers into building his army for him or he'd have no army!

Well, if you believe the magic-heavy propaganda and lies that GW feed you, then you may think that way. The truth is far more interesting, far more dark, and far more...icky...(in parts). You just have to know which sources to read.

Besides, my version of the truth is obviously the truth!

This is great to see an army with heart! Pretty well balanced design the only thing that seems to be missing is maybe the zombie or skeleton chaff to throw(i like to say shoot) in a bus formation that you can tie down a unit that has crept up on you fast and your not ready to deal with yet! Positioning is ever so vital with most undead,and this requires time,although can backfire if the unit melts and overrun occurs.p.s cheers to silly lunatics,i am one also!

There's probably going to be a few skellies in there, no zombies though...not really going to have the juice to help them hang around. Also plenty of dogs and a few Hexwraiths will be running interferance for me.

You could use the Fearbomb setup to reduce the risks to Konrad. People don't tend to hit much when they're at WS1. So, Screaming Banner, and a support Vampire with Fear Incarnate and Aura of Dark Majesty could help.

The extra vampire is an issue though, I know that technically, I can take one and just pretend that he can't magic things...but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that I'm cheating already even with a single level 1 necro.

I suppose I could swap out the necro for a vampire, I'll have a look at that.

PS. I LOVED your Konrad battlereports!

Great to see you going back to Konrad (loved your battle reports)

Cheers guys!

[NitrosOkay]

Well when you take an army whose very essence is magic and then try to strip magic from it there will be struggles

[BigbyWolf]

Well when you take an army whose very essence is magic and then try to strip magic from it there will be struggles

No struggle! Only challenge!

Anyway, I've popped a couple of lists in the relevant forum for critique.

[Soundwave]

Any army that revolves its list entirety around the magic phase is and always will be completely risky!V.C have in toe this complete stigmata ,it is possible and i believe in this list design to be highly playable it just takes time and practice as well as patience.

[Rotgut]

Centre of the line- standing next to a character in the Nightshroud. On the plus side, it keeps him in the centre, probably the Grave Guard, and lets his aura help out other units movement. On the downside, step up attacks are a risk.

I love Konrad so much that I named my son after him. Unfortunately, Konrad cannot be the general and as such does not have a march aura. It's ridiculous, but it's the rules.

[BigbyWolf]

I love Konrad so much that I named my son after him. Unfortunately, Konrad cannot be the general and as such does not have a march aura. It's ridiculous, but it's the rules.

True, but the other Vampire will be next to him to pass on the Nightshroud bonus, so the radius should be the same.

Any army that revolves its list entirety around the magic phase is and always will be completely risky!V.C have in toe this complete stigmata ,it is possible and i believe in this list design to be highly playable it just takes time and practice as well as patience.

I have hopes for it. The tactic worked ok with the previous VC armybook in 8th edition, and back in 7th a vastly different list using the same tactic was actually pretty successful.

[MOMUS]

What is it about konrad that is better than just making your own killy fighty vampire lord? I actually like the idea of running him with the knights, knightbus VC are rather scary anyway. Are you considering a mainly mounted force?









(Not as good as an army of mounted lizzes but what do i know)

[BigbyWolf]

What is it about konrad that is better than just making your own killy fighty vampire lord? I actually like the idea of running him with the knights, knightbus VC are rather scary anyway. Are you considering a mainly mounted force?









(Not as good as an army of mounted lizzes but what do i know)

Konrad is just fun. And the idea is a throwback to my 7th edition army which didn't have a single magic level in it. I got fed up of people banging on about how VC's couldn't even compete unless they were magic-heavy, so I went completely the opposite way, and as Konrad was the only way to run the army (you had to have a Vampire to lead, but there was nothing in the rules about him having to be a caster).

As you may have gathered, MOMUS, I like to make...odd...armies.

[MOMUS]

Konrad is just fun. And the idea is a throwback to my 7th edition army which didn't have a single magic level in it. I got fed up of people banging on about how VC's couldn't even compete unless they were magic-heavy, so I went completely the opposite way, and as Konrad was the only way to run the army (you had to have a Vampire to lead, but there was nothing in the rules about him having to be a caster).

As you may have gathered, MOMUS, I like to make...odd...armies.

I was just thinking you could have a killy vamp as your general, mounted and just not use his spells. Ever. This way you would have the same theme just without all the drawbacks of Konrad, the only difference is that your general would be slightly more susceptible to wizard effecting items (like cupped hands etc) but theres not many of them and you could kit him out so he was harder to kill than Konrad anyway.


How about an all mounted empire army?

[Malorian]

How about accepting you are doing something crazy and fun and just doing it?

[MOMUS]

How about accepting you are doing something crazy and fun and just doing it?

NEVAH! OK you two have your crazy fun and I shall be waiting.....watching.....from the shadows...








New batreps please Bigby?

[BigbyWolf]

I was just thinking you could have a killy vamp as your general, mounted and just not use his spells. Ever. This way you would have the same theme just without all the drawbacks of Konrad, the only difference is that your general would be slightly more susceptible to wizard effecting items (like cupped hands etc) but theres not many of them and you could kit him out so he was harder to kill than Konrad anyway.


How about an all mounted empire army?

It's all about the Konrad! Possibly the best special character ever! I hated the look of him at first, picked him on a whim, and grew to love him (having him kill a Bloodthirster helps...). The army is centred round him, with a lot of pointless restrictions, and it's one of the funnest armies I've ever used.

As for Empire? Hush, you! Too many other armies to work on. No more buying until I've painted everything!

How about accepting you are doing something crazy and fun and just doing it?

This is pretty much the way Warhammer should be done!

New batreps please Bigby?

When I play some games, I'll post some reps...with pictures too this time!

[Doommasters]

Not that I am a big VC player but if you really wanted to make Konrad as durable as possible could you try;

- Two mortis engines for a 5+ regen save
- Vampire with Beasts for the +1T +1S signature spell
- Vampire next to him with beguile? The one that reduces the ability to models in b2b can't remember exactly what power it is.
- Vampire with powers to reduce leadership combined with fear to reduce WS
- Park a SGk next to him so when you attack there might not be enough ranks left for supporting attacks
- Put him on the very outside of the unit
- If you come up against a really hitty unit accpet/issue the challenge with Konrad and kill them before they hit back. Extra wounds count towards CR and the SGK can empty a rank on his own, next combat phase you should be striking first and between konrad and SGK there won't be too many attacks back aslong as it isn't a massive horde. Won't work everytime but every little bit helps.

I can't think of anything else that you can reliably use