Space marine captains

[Grocklock]

I understand there is only one chapter master per space marine legion. So Is their one space marine captian per chapter of a legion so in. The case of ultramarines is there only 10 captains?

[Vaulkhar]

Be careful not to mix up pre-heresy legions and post-heresy chapters.

Pre-heresy: The Ultramarines Legion is divided into chapters (each run by a chapter master who answers to Primarch Gulliman) which in turn divide into companies (each run by a captain). Everyone else does their own thing. Given the estimate of 23 2nd Founding UM successors in several codices*, that implies 230,000 UMs on the books at the end of the heresy, implying some 200-250 active companies and hence 200-250 Captains in the Legion.

Post heresy: The Legions are broken up. In the case of the Ultras this leaves the Chapter as the largest organisational unit and since Rowboat was calling the shots, that's what goes into the Codex and becomes standard. Everyone else follows suit, albeit with wildly varying degrees of compliance. Each Chapter has 10 Companies and thus 10 Captains.


*: It'd be good practice to cite a source for this but it's late and I'm horribly lazy at times. Does anyone else remember references to the Apocrypha of Skaros and Davo in the Marine codices?

[Inquisitor Engel]

I'm of the opinion that Captain is a rank, First Captain is a position. This is why we have Captain Sicarius (Captain of the 2nd Company/Second Captain) and Captain Titus running around simultaneously. (Relic stated on their forums the events in Space Marine tackle place in "present-day" 40k)

Many of the members of the Chapter Master's honour guard will also be Captains, but not have a permanent command.

Just a thought.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I understand there is only one chapter master per space marine legion. So Is their one space marine captian per chapter of a legion so in. The case of ultramarines is there only 10 captains?

Actually, the Ultramarines had many Chapter Masters in the Heresy Era.

Remember, the Legions were led by Primarchs. They didn't need a "Legion Master" rank.

[Grocklock]

Thanks for the replies guys, sorry got a little confussed by the legion, chapters and companies. So 1 chapter master and 1 captian per compainy ok

[Lord Damocles]

I'm of the opinion that Captain is a rank, First Captain is a position. This is why we have Captain (Captain of the 2nd Company/Second Captain) and Captain Titus running around simultaneously. (Relic stated on their forums the events in Space Marine tackle place in "present-day" 40k)

That seems to be the most elegant solution to the problem of the Ultramarines 2nd having loads of Captains (also the guy from the movie).

Dawn of War 2 calls the player's commander 'Force Commander', which was one of the variations of Marine Hero back in 3rd edition. Which works much better than 'Captain'.

[AndrewGPaul]

"Force Commander" sounds like a temporary position; whoever is in charge of a given Space Marine force at any one time is a Force Commander; it could be the Chapter Master, a Captain, Chaplain, Librarian or even a Techmarine or veteran sergeant.

[unwanted]

In 3rd, Force Commanders were above Captains in cost and stats, and as such I figured they were the basic template for a DIY Chaptermaster, as their stats were pretty close to Calgars', albeit without his special rules...

[Inquisitor Engel]

(also the guy from the movie)

Shh! We do not speak of it!

It's also the only rational way to actually justify the game itself, where most lists are drawn from at least two companies and don't number 100 marines either. Captain Smith gets put in charge of leading the strike on Super-Evil Base V and chooses his strike force from the available marines. Where possible they try and choose marines from their own company due to knowledge of their strengths, behaviours and mindsets.

Force Commander is again, likely a position if multiple Captains are involved in a single theatre.

[AveImperator123]

From Know No Fear, I believe that the Ultramarine has 25 chapters, so, a chapter master controls 10000 marines. These 10000 marines are divided into 10 companies of 1000, each led by a Captain. So a captain of the old legion commands the same as a Chapter Master of the current 40k era. A chapter master commands 10 times as much as a chapter master now.

[Col. Tartleton]

I've just assumed there are more Officers than companies, and that the additional Captains and Lieutenants form the Honor Guard.

My take is that a Battle Company is made up of 2 Platoons of 10 Combat Squads:

2 Tactical Combat Squads
2 Tactical Combat Squads
2 Tactical Combat Squads
2 Assault Combat Squads
2 Devastator Combat Squads

2 Tactical Combat Squads
2 Tactical Combat Squads
2 Tactical Combat Squads
2 Assault Combat Squads
2 Devastator Combat Squads

The full company would be run by a Captain, but there would also be a Lieutenant and Veteran Sergeant in each Platoon. There would be additional Veteran Sergeants/Company Veterans who would form the Company Command Squad and be overseeing other aspects of the integrated support.

Ultimately there would be a pool of Officers: Both Junior and Senior Lieutenants and Captains who are not in positions of command and would be assigned to the Chapter Master's Staff and deploy as his "Honor Guard."

[Inquisitor Engel]

Ultimately there would be a pool of Officers: Both Junior and Senior Lieutenants and Captains who are not in positions of command and would be assigned to the Chapter Master's Staff and deploy as his "Honor Guard."

I also recall mention that the Honour Guard was made up of those of the rank of 'Captain' from somewhere.

[TheDungen]

Shh! We do not speak of it! .

I quite liked it actually, sure it was a bit generic and a bit predictable but hey it wasnt bad.

[Leftenant Gashrog]

From Know No Fear, I believe that the Ultramarine has 25 chapters, so, a chapter master controls 10000 marines. These 10000 marines are divided into 10 companies of 1000, each led by a Captain. So a captain of the old legion commands the same as a Chapter Master of the current 40k era. A chapter master commands 10 times as much as a chapter master now.

Over on Bolterandchainsword ADB piped in on the 10,000 vs 100,000 marines per chapter issue by saying they were told to use the numbers from the Horus Heresy artbooks which went with the latter. The thing is tho the artbook which put them at 100k also detailed the organisation as:

Chapter/Regiment/Wing/Grand Company = 2 Battalions commanded by a Commander (Commander = rank, Chapter Master etc = position)
Battalion = 5 companies commanded by a Lieutenant-Commander
Company = 100 marines commanded by a Captain
total = 1,000 marines per chapter.

Methinks when writing Know No Fear Abnett was perhaps trying to follow the Artbooks as instructed but by simply assuming they stuck a 0 on the end of everything rather than checking what they actually said..

I've just assumed there are more Officers than companies, and that the additional Captains and Lieutenants form the Honor Guard.

My take is that a Battle Company is made up of 2 Platoons of 10 Combat Squads:

For what its worth, in EPIC the standard deployment is four 'detachments': two 30-strong Tacticals, one 20-strong Devastator and one 20-strong Assault, unless the Assault are fielded as Speeders or Bikes in which case its two 10-strong detachments. Thats a maximum of 5 units, interestingly the full Ultramarines write-up in the 3rd edition Codex had the only full strength company possessing 5 Veteran Sergeants which were listed separately from the squads. *cue twilight zone music*

Despite being an EPIC player at heart I see nothing wrong with the RT system: 1 Captain and 1 Lieutenant per company but with no intermediary formation between Squad and Company - the Captain simply tells the Lieutenant what to do and assigns him the necessary units for that mission as needed.

[Corbeau]

I also recall mention that the Honour Guard was made up of those of the rank of 'Captain' from somewhere.

If I also correctly recall, 5th ed Codex Space Marines seemingly implies the Honour Guard are senior to the Company Captains

[terradax]

Pre-Heresy:

Each Legion was led by a Primarch.
The Legions was made up of 10 Chapters, each led by a Chapter Master.
Each Chapter consisted of 10 Companies, each led by a Captain.

Post-Heresy:

The Legions were split up into Chapters, as above.
Each Company is still led by a Captain, but it is possible that some Companies have 2 Captains (rare, but it happens).

[Polaria]

If I remember correctly in "Know No Fear" the Ultramarines Legion was divided into 25 chapters, each with 10 000 astartes. Each chapter was further divided into companies of 1 000 astartes each. That would mean the Ultramarines Legion senior officers were 1 Primarch, 25 Chapter Masters and 250 Captains.

[Inquisitor Engel]

If I also correctly recall, 5th ed Codex Space Marines seemingly implies the Honour Guard are senior to the Company Captains

Though they could still be Captains in rank, but "Honour Guard Captain" is a higher position than Company Captain, though that doesn't make sense since Mastery of the Chapter GENERALLY falls to the First Company Captain.

Pre-Heresy:

Each Legion was led by a Primarch.
The Legions was made up of 10 Chapters, each led by a Chapter Master.
Each Chapter consisted of 10 Companies, each led by a Captain.

So not correct it's not even funny. As far as we're aware, only the Ultramarines and Word Bearers had Chapters pre-Heresy. Other exceptions occur: Death Guard had only seven Companies, Iron Warriors and Night Lords had 'Grand Companies' at some point, though whether this was just another name for the basic company or the equivalent of a Chapter is unexplored currently, as far as I"m aware.

Post-Heresy:
The Legions were split up into Chapters, as above.
Each Company is still led by a Captain, but it is possible that some Companies have 2 Captains (rare, but it happens).

That's an overly simple explanation of what we've been discussing here.

[Theocracity]

You know, for an organization that's supposed to be constructed along strict, by-the-book guidelines, the Ultramarines have a weirdly confusing structure.

[Corbeau]

Though they could still be Captains in rank, but "Honour Guard Captain" is a higher position than Company Captain, though that doesn't make sense since Mastery of the Chapter GENERALLY falls to the First Company Captain.

Exactly the point lol