Space marine captains

[Orthodox]

I also recall mention that the Honour Guard was made up of those of the rank of 'Captain' from somewhere.

They only really appear in the fourth and fifth edition codexes. In fourth they were ultramarine units who swapped out of regular companies. In fifth, they are described as having the experience and reputations of captains, but I do not think it compares them directly in rank.

Modern honor guard solve a problem. Somebody has to own chapters. The physical plant and assets like the companies cannot just exist, they need some kind of trusteeship. "The Chapter," as institution, needs representation. Naturally, that can be provided by the chapters' masters. Some body of the masters can be an executive board, and they entrust the various assets, like companies, to commissioned plenipotentiaries. A captain is sent to take charge over an asset, which is his company.

The chapter have no body of troops who directly represent their interests. If they need to investigate or arrest a company captain, they might prefer to commission a group of directly serving officers, like honor guard. When they need diplomats, of course they need someone with the same diplomatic rank as a captain, but without the responsibilities.

[QUOTE=Col. Tartleton;6351224Junior and Senior Lieutenants and Captains[/QUOTE]

I'm sure the reason lieutenants are not recorded is that nobody wants to imply that kind of technical military rank. "Captain" is used in the original sense of someone with custody of a body of troops, like with administrative and executive responsibility. Platoons are easy. Modern Epic has four or five units dividing up the squads by specialty, Armies of the Imperium has a command squad and three groups of thirty each. A platoon is any group of squads, one of which has a veteran sergeant commanding the others. They probably include armor, and a veteran sergeant puts one of his combat squads in tanks, mechanizes the other, and commands a larger group of two or three other squads, which also may be broken up between armor, bikes, tactical, conventional assault, and devastator.

It's also the only rational way to actually justify the game itself, where most lists are drawn from at least two companies and don't number 100 marines either. Captain Smith gets put in charge of leading the strike on Super-Evil Base V and chooses his strike force from the available marines. Where possible they try and choose marines from their own company due to knowledge of their strengths, behaviours and mindsets.

Force Commander is again, likely a position if multiple Captains are involved in a single theatre.

Sure. A Captain's lieutenant is actually another captain. Armies are built around battle companies, so at any time an augmented battle company probably has one or two extra captains from the six other companies tagging along. They are captains in the mode of Baglioni and Vitelli, not like yeah some kind of pay grade.

interestingly the full Ultramarines write-up in the 3rd edition Codex had the only full strength company possessing 5 Veteran Sergeants which were listed separately from the squads.

What happened to communications officers? Oh yeah, this is where they went. Officers have staff.

Though they could still be Captains in rank, but "Honour Guard Captain" is a higher position than Company Captain, though that doesn't make sense since Mastery of the Chapter GENERALLY falls to the First Company Captain.

He commands troops. Honour Guard are an officers unit without the same kind of resources to manage. I'd take the first captain too.

[Inquisitor Engel]

They are captains in the mode of Baglioni and Vitelli, not like yeah some kind of pay grade.

Pay grade? PAY GRADE?! Service to the Emperor is its OWN reward!

He commands troops. Honour Guard are an officers unit without the same kind of resources to manage. I'd take the first captain too.

I think we're largely saying the same thing here, difference being that I'm saying other captains (ie not First, Second, etc.) are sometimes given command of strike forces, which accounts for Sicarius, Titus and Severus all being Captains of the Ultramarines Second Company at once (and in three different places). It's also worth noting that Titus' command squad is one barely-promoted Marine and a veteran sergeant.

[Bonzai]

My understanding was that the honor guard are drawn from a pool of 1st company veterans/captains. I would think that technicaly a Captain out ranks an honor guard individually, the honor guard tends to have the authority of the Chapter Master behind them.

I had never heard of a "Force Commander" before the Dawn of War series, but I always assumed that it was simply the title of the officer in charge of a particular engagement. For example half of 2nd Company is sent on a mission and also has a couple squads from 1st and 10th attached to them. If there is no ranking officer beyond Sergeant present, then a Force Commander would be apointed to lead the expidition. Most likely it would be the 1st Company Sergeant as he would technically be higher in authority and seniority, but if the bulk of the forces were 2nd Company, it could be some one from there (possibly a member of the company command squad).

[Orthodox]

Pay grade? PAY GRADE?! Service to the Emperor is its OWN reward!
...
other captains (ie not First, Second, etc.)

I think we are not saying the same thing at all. I am inadequate.

There is this modern sense in which Captain is a rank or pay-grade that a military officer can have even if he is a doctor or staff officer and has no command. For space marines, captain should be understood in the archaic sense, of someone in custody of a body of troops. Custody as in they are responsible for the maintenance and commitment of the troops. I say Vitelli and Baglioni because they were Cesare Borgia's "captains," but in the sense that they commanded their own mercenary units that they used to betray him. They are like the Lords Ikoma, Shirane, et al in Ran, they are officers of a larger army in a feudal sense. They just hadn't invented the term "general" at the time.

I am not mistaking codex captains for Wolf Lords. Companies are not personal vassals of their captains, that is not at issue. Rather, it is only by acceding to the captaincy of a company (or other important asset, as the Luna Wolves' Catulan Reaver Squad) that a captain can be called so. They are not a pay-grade below major and one above lieutenant; this is not a context in which those terms can exist. Vulkan He'Stan is not a captain, he did not take his captaincy with him.

Each company is a continuing institution. It has its own heraldry and history: contrasting with with squads which are functional divisions that are usually named after whoever happens to be their sergeant. These standing institutions are assets owned by their respective chapters, and the chapter has to appoint managers over them, to speak for the chapter and wield its authority. In this scenario, there are no multiple captains Titus etc who can take substitute in or out.

Captain or lieutenant have technical meanings in modern militaries, but they have general meanings as classes of deputy. Captains are autonomous authorities over a specific body like a high school sports team or a sanitation department block captain. Lieutenants are factotums of other authorities. That general dictionary definition is the one that should be used, since marine chapters are fraternal orders and not professional armies.

[Sinisterfence]

I don't remember which codex, but I'm certain in one of the more recent almost-codex-adherent chapters' codex it states that on occasion a company may have more than one captain, depending on dispersement and logistical errors I would assume. It could be that, to use Titus as an example, he received a field promotion due to being the highest ranking Marine of the company in that sector. Sicarius may have been elsewhere with one half of the company and Titus with the other in this sector.. The Marines still need a leader for that engagement.

[Leftenant Gashrog]

What happened to communications officers? Oh yeah, this is where they went. Officers have staff.

I'm old skool, I assume the communications officers are the same as they were in RT: Librarians

[Orthodox]

Not at all. In RT, each company had a communications officer who carried a better communicator, plus a scanner or whatever they were called before they were just a generic auspex.

Librarians are intelligence officers, for sure. This makes the point though. In the below section from wd97, there are described communications officers and lieutenants. This was when Rick Priestly (and here, David Wise) still kind of thought that marines were the army. Since they turned out not to be the army, those ideas had to be streamlined by veteran sergeants and the modern librarium.

http://squattingmouse.tabletopgeeks....e-army/?pid=51

COMMUNICATIONS

As with medical personnel, a chapter's field-communications staff varies according to the mission. Communications Officers, Astropaths and Psykers all fall within this section. The primary role of psykers is to maintain inter-stellar and inter-planetary communications. On the battlefield psykers provide psychic support as required.

All communications personnel are drawn from the Librarium staff. The Librarium is the nerve centre of any marine fortress. The three groups outlined above differ in the following respects:

Communication Officers are brethren (i.e. fully initiated marines) who have technical expertise as well as battle experience. A Communication Officer will usually have held the rank of at least lieutenant before re-training in the communication role. Communication Officers are in charge of all aspects of communications as well as the psychic members of the force. A Communication Officer may also be a psyker (see below).

Astropaths - are Imperial servants, members of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, posted to marine units as part of the Imperium's complex communications network. An Astropath may hold office within the chapter, but is not a marine and is ultimately subject to the will of the Adeptus Terra.

Psykers - some psykers are judged sufficiently strong to remain whole rather than suffer the transformation into an Astropath. Such men are recruited into the various Imperial services. Some are recruited by the marines and undergo the complete bio-chem ritual which turns them into marines. Some chapters integrate psykers into company level, but the Ultra-Marines place all such individuals within the Librarium. That is not to say they are unused to combat. Psykers perform a vital role as psychic support troops for their brother marines.

[club_death]

not too loud!!
people would think it's made up!!

[Inquisitor Engel]

not too loud!!
people would think it's made up!!

Methinks you might be in the wrong place...