Initiative Steps Definition Incomplete

[Brian2000]

Aspects of this topic has been discussed previously but I believe there is confusion on how to determine and apply Initiative Steps. The reason behind the confusion is through out the paragraphs of the Fight Sub-Phase, GW refers to the word "Initiative" when it actually means "Initiative or assigned Initiative Step".


Givens and comments:
1. Initiative is a characteristic and can be altered by modifiers (multipliers, additions/subtractions, and set values). Initiative modifiers apply to the Initiative characteristic and not to Initiative Steps. p.2
2. "Certain situations, abilities, and weapons" can assign a model to a specific Initiative Step. Example: Unwieldy-"A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1." p.43
3. Initiative Steps, p.22. "… a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat. Work your way through the Initiative values of the models engaged in the combat … This means that each combat will have ten Initiative Steps …". Using "Initiative" and "Initiative values" by themselves is incomplete in this definition because a model can also be "assigned" to an Initiative Step, regardless of it's "Initiative" or "Initiative values". To be complete, it should state " a model's Initiative or assigned Initiative Step determines when he attacks in close combat … Initiative values or assigned Initiative Step …".
4. Start of Initiative Step Pile In, p.23 "At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step … must make a Pile In move." Since, "Initiative" is incomplete above, "Initiative" in this paragraph is too and should be " … whose Initiative Step …". Initiative Steps now determine the sequence of events, regardless of the model's "Initiative", i.e. the "Initiative" has already been considered and applied thru the setting of the model's Initiative Step.
5. Who Can Fight, p.23 "Models make their attacks when their Initiative Step is reached … Note that certain situations, abilities, and weapons can modify a model's Initiative.". Again this is incomplete as a model's Initiative Step can be assigned thru these means. To be complete, it should state "… a model's Initiative or Initiative Step.".


So, at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase, Initiative modifiers will be applied to a model. (Notice the Tyranid FAQ where a roll-off will take place when multiple set modifiers are applied). The model will be put into 1 of 10 Initiative Steps based on the model's modified Initiative, or the assigned Initiative Step. The model will Pile In according to the Initiative Step it has been placed into. The model will attack according to the Initiative Step it has been placed into. In a situation where the model's Initiative is modified during the Fight Sub-phase, the Initiative is recalculated using all Initiative modifiers as per p.2. This will be the model's new Initiative. Since Initiative Steps are determined at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase, prior to Initiative Step Pile In and Who Can Fight, the Initiative Step won't change even though the model's Initiative value may. If you allow the Initiative Step to be reassigned during the Fight Sub-phase you can have a paradox: During the Fight sub-phase a model's Initiative is altered from I4 to I10 during Initiative Step 4. This would put the model into Initiative Step 10, which means all results from Initiative Steps 10 thru Initiative Step 4 are in question.

[Chapters Unwritten]

Oh my god. Really? REALLY?

[RanaldLoec]

Aspects of this topic has been discussed previously but I believe there is confusion on how to determine and apply Initiative Steps. The reason behind the confusion is through out the paragraphs of the Fight Sub-Phase, GW refers to the word "Initiative" when it actually means "Initiative or assigned Initiative Step".


Givens and comments:
1. Initiative is a characteristic and can be altered by modifiers (multipliers, additions/subtractions, and set values). Initiative modifiers apply to the Initiative characteristic and not to Initiative Steps. p.2
2. "Certain situations, abilities, and weapons" can assign a model to a specific Initiative Step. Example: Unwieldy-"A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1." p.43
3. Initiative Steps, p.22. "… a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat. Work your way through the Initiative values of the models engaged in the combat … This means that each combat will have ten Initiative Steps …". Using "Initiative" and "Initiative values" by themselves is incomplete in this definition because a model can also be "assigned" to an Initiative Step, regardless of it's "Initiative" or "Initiative values". To be complete, it should state " a model's Initiative or assigned Initiative Step determines when he attacks in close combat … Initiative values or assigned Initiative Step …".
4. Start of Initiative Step Pile In, p.23 "At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step … must make a Pile In move." Since, "Initiative" is incomplete above, "Initiative" in this paragraph is too and should be " … whose Initiative Step …". Initiative Steps now determine the sequence of events, regardless of the model's "Initiative", i.e. the "Initiative" has already been considered and applied thru the setting of the model's Initiative Step.
5. Who Can Fight, p.23 "Models make their attacks when their Initiative Step is reached … Note that certain situations, abilities, and weapons can modify a model's Initiative.". Again this is incomplete as a model's Initiative Step can be assigned thru these means. To be complete, it should state "… a model's Initiative or Initiative Step.".


So, at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase, Initiative modifiers will be applied to a model. (Notice the Tyranid FAQ where a roll-off will take place when multiple set modifiers are applied). The model will be put into 1 of 10 Initiative Steps based on the model's modified Initiative, or the assigned Initiative Step. The model will Pile In according to the Initiative Step it has been placed into. The model will attack according to the Initiative Step it has been placed into. In a situation where the model's Initiative is modified during the Fight Sub-phase, the Initiative is recalculated using all Initiative modifiers as per p.2. This will be the model's new Initiative. Since Initiative Steps are determined at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase, prior to Initiative Step Pile In and Who Can Fight, the Initiative Step won't change even though the model's Initiative value may. If you allow the Initiative Step to be reassigned during the Fight Sub-phase you can have a paradox: During the Fight sub-phase a model's Initiative is altered from I4 to I10 during Initiative Step 4. This would put the model into Initiative Step 10, which means all results from Initiative Steps 10 thru Initiative Step 4 are in question.

Great way to completely over complicate a relatively straight forward process. Almost as bad as that wound allocation process diagram that appeared early last month.

[Infidel]

There is something to be said about "strike at initiative 1"

The way we play it - you pile in at your intiative, and then if your initiative is modified in any way (say, because you have an unwieldy weapon or a model with initiative-reducing power) you then swing at your modified initiative.

This way does some times result in the odd situation where some model doesn't get to strike because the initiative reducing enemy can be killed before they strike, thus returning their initiaitve to a step that has already passed, but it seems to us to be the most logical way to use the mechanic.

[Coredump]

These are all direct quotes from the rulebook, copy and paste.

any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move
(You pile in at your initiative step)

A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
• During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models. etc...
(you check for engagement at your initiative step

Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached,
(You attack at your initiative step)

So,the rules say that you pile in, check engagement, and attack, all on your initiative step. The *only* way to follow all of these rules, is if the PF sgt has an initiative step of 1

[hashrat]

Unwieldy = A model "Attacking" with...

Attacking happens after pile In. Re-read the rules on the assault phase, it is quite clear, there is no "attacking" during Pile in.
Page 23, bottom left, Who can fight? This is where the "Attacking" section of the Assault phase starts. After Pile In..

Seem the rules *only* work, if you follow them.... as opposed to making them up as you go along.

The only thing that is likely to make you Pile In at I1, is difficult terrain.


Only hard core Cocaine abusers are qualified to guess at what GW will rule on the matter...

[Coredump]

Are you referring to me?

I did not post my opinion, I posted the exact rule quotes. Copy and paste even. Nothing 'made up' at all.

[Carlosophy]

Are you referring to me?

I did not post my opinion, I posted the exact rule quotes. Copy and paste even. Nothing 'made up' at all.

He pointed out where you went wrong. The PF guy attacks at I1, he doesn't reduce his base I to 1. Therefore he piles in at I4 or whenever, he just attacks later on.

You're trying to find complications in what is a very straightforward process.

[Coredump]

Where I went wrong?? I *COPY AND PASTED* the rules.... if I am wrong, then the rulebook is wrong.

[ForceM1782]

Op overcomplicated the thing indeed:

The question is in fact: "Do models pile in at their printed initiative value step or at their modified (through unwieldy for example) initiative step?"

As simple as that. BRB would make you believe as it is of now the model would pile in at I4 but then strike at I1. Which is clearly unintended!

[Coredump]

ANd clearly NOT what the rulebook says.

I quoted the rules.. they say you attack and pile in at your init step.

[MetalGecko23]

Where I went wrong?? I *COPY AND PASTED* the rules.... if I am wrong, then the rulebook is wrong.

The rule is:
"Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached"

That is the start of the paragraph. It then goes to mention as long as then haven't already been killed. An then models with the same Initiative attack simultaneously.

The paragraph ends with:
"Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

Meaning Powerfists can change when they attack. But will not change when they Pile In. I honestly don't see what the enormous issue is......seems really easy to me.

[Coredump]

So you are saying that a model with a Pfist has two different initiative steps? Where does it allow for that in the rules?

[MetalGecko23]

So you are saying that a model with a Pfist has two different initiative steps? Where does it allow for that in the rules?

That is pretty much it. Unwieldy makes you attack at Initiative 1 but not Pile In at Initiative 1.

Page 429 under Fight Sub-Phase seems to clear it up further.

"Starting at Initiative 10, count down through the steps towards 1..."

* "All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23)."
* "All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks equal to their Attacks characteristic plus any bonus Attacks they are entitled to (see page 24).

Now remember that a models Initiative can be changed or modified by a weapon (page 23).

At Initiative Step 4 a Space Marine Sergeant will Pile In and attempt to become engaged (we assume that it will). Once all models that can be engaged are engaged then attacks can be made. A Space Marine Sergeant with a Powerfist attacks at Initiative Step 1 because of Unwieldy so therefore can not attack at Step 4 but must wait until Step 1.

There is no problem to be had.

[ToXikyogHurt]

If you allow the Initiative Step to be reassigned during the Fight Sub-phase you can have a paradox:

Luckily this doesn't happen. A model's initiative may be changed, but the step values can't. Once you've had a step at a certain value you can't have a second one.

During the Fight sub-phase a model's Initiative is altered from I4 to I10 during Initiative Step 4. This would put the model into Initiative Step 10,

No, it would make it eligible to act during step 10, but since that step already happened the model is actually just removing itself from step 4 and takes no further actions during that step (or any later step in the fight).

So you are saying that a model with a Pfist has two different initiative steps? Where does it allow for that in the rules?

The assault rules never exclude a model from acting during more than one step. They just say that during an initiative step, models with an initiative the same as that step perform actions (Pile-In and then Attack). Unwieldy weapons don't actually change a models initiative, they just force it to attack at I1; this is a exception to the normal combat rules, and is worded specifically as "attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1" so does not affect pile-in moves, which aren't an attack.

Hammer of Wrath (Page 37) gives a (non-I10) model an extra attack at a different initiative step to the rest of its attacks. If acting at multiple initiative steps were impossible, HoW would have to explicitly give you permission to continue to use the rest of your attacks. Unless you're also arguing that HoW forces a model to make only a single attack, despite being worded: 'makes one additional Attack'.

[hangnail]

So if you pile-in at your base initiative, how does this work with Halberds?

[Infidel]

So if you pile-in at your base initiative, ow does this work with Halberds?

It would seem that they strike before their pile in move.

I wonder which direction FAQ would rule.

[MetalGecko23]

So if you pile-in at your base initiative, how does this work with Halberds?

Well the Grey Knight Codex uses 5th edition wording. Halberds say that the model strikes at +2 Initiative........though it doesn't say it attacks at +2 Initiative like how Unwieldy works. So to me a Grey Knight with a Halberd is I6 in combat. So Piles In and Attacks at the Initiative 6 step.

[Infidel]

Well the Grey Knight Codex uses 5th edition wording. Halberds say that the model strikes at +2 Initiative........though it doesn't say it attacks at +2 Initiative like how Unwieldy works. So to me a Grey Knight with a Halberd is I6 in combat. So Piles In and Attacks at the Initiative 6 step.

Strike and Attacks are practically synonymous unless there is something somewhere that says they're different.

[hangnail]

See, there you go. "strikes at +2I" is no more 'becomes +2I' than Unwieldy "hits at I1"... So if you think PFs Pile-in and hit at different I's then you should think that Halberds Hit and then Pile-in at different I's.