How many points should a Fire Warrior cost?

[IcedAnimals]

Fire warriors should be cheaper so I have an excuse to have cheaper sisters. So they should be 9 points so my sisters can be 10.

[A.T.]

Fire warriors should be cheaper so I have an excuse to have cheaper sisters. So they should be 9 points so my sisters can be 10.

Sisters are fine at 12, so long as they get the points worth of punch. At 10 points there would be no reason for them to be any better than inefficient melta-carriers they are at the moment.

[Glabro]

This does also give the lie to the idea that you can't compare things across codexes. You can and should, because I can include fire warriors in my eldar army.

While true now, the idea that you can't compare was just as true in 5th. And nicely highlights why institutionalized allies are crap from a balance perspective. Common sense, really. So I will not be making use of them, and expect the same from my opponents.

As for FWs, I really think the 10-point price point is mathematically right (not because that's what it currently is), but I could see army and squad options changing for their benefit.

[Guyver 3]

I think 100pts wouldbe fair for a unit of fw if the sarg was free, fire warriors problem is their inability to do anything other than stand still and shoot then get charged and die. I still use them in squads but they need to be able to reposition themselves faster.

If gw followed their own fluff firewarriors would be a focus fire/ quick reaction type unit that can get out of trouble and put the hurt down with strong fire

Fix the unit gw

I would give them a unique grenade type included in their cost which shocks charging units and makes them roll one d6 for their charge distance problem solved!

[shadekiller]

@guyver3
they could give them hit and run on something like 4+, it's a little buff which add to the dynamic of the army, it lets you shoot the assaulters to bits whitout letting them chew the whole squad id they don't have a dedicated CC unit

[Surgency]

@guyver3
they could give them hit and run on something like 4+, it's a little buff which add to the dynamic of the army, it lets you shoot the assaulters to bits whitout letting them chew the whole squad id they don't have a dedicated CC unit

There's no real point to Hit and Run on a unit thats likely to fold like a wet paper bag at the first mention of the word assault. Remember, LD7(8 w/Sarge) and I2 means that losing combat by anything more than 1 will likely result in a unit cut down by a sweep. And with WS2, the only thing you're going to win or tie combat with will be naked guardsmen or grots.

[Xerkics]

Fire warriors are costed fine, what they need is like DE to have army wide special rules that make them better like combat drugs for example only those that make sense for tau. The poll Is pretty biased btw there should be more expensive options which is why you got so many 9+ results where majority of people think they should cost 9 or more +

[shadekiller]

@ surgency

well... your right XD let's think about something else..

[Stinkfoot]

Special weapon options! That's really all that they need to be viable. They're not bad on an individual trooper basis. Fire Warriors only suck on a unit-to-unit comparison.

[shadekiller]

bah I think thats one of the thing that make them a bit more unique. I prefer more synergy with my tau than aditionnal punch from specials.

[Baaltor]

Special weapon options! That's really all that they need to be viable. They're not bad on an individual trooper basis. Fire Warriors only suck on a unit-to-unit comparison.

If we do that then we should give Tyranids grenades, eldar assault vehicles, Chaos HQs eternal warrior, and Dark Eldar AV 11 on all sides.

[megatrons2nd]

At 10 points they do need some kind of rule. Allowing overwatch on normal BS, as well as cheaper markerlights and free photon grenades, would actually make me think 10 points is right. If they remain as is, they need at least a 1 point drop, but no more than a 2 point drop.

The markerlight system is neat, but it is not effective at the low number you can put in do to the high cost of them. I would think 5 points for a squad leader markerlight, leave the Pathfinders at the same cost but remove the Devilfish requirement from the entry, and for the marker drone 15 points.


By the way, whoever said blind on the pulse carbine, that is a great idea!

[Sazabi]

Allowing overwatch on normal BS, as well as cheaper markerlights and free photon grenades,

That would make them almost impossible to assault you realize? A Tyranid or Ork player might as well pack up before game. Such an upgrade should bring FWs up to 16pts a point a pop.

[Hendarion]

Don't bring Mat Ward's 'balance' into this, his stuff is terrible and crude. He makes units effective by making them all (mostly too) aggressively priced, and by adding rough abilities that technically work, but don't actually rely on tactics or balance such as Purifying Flame.

No need to be so harsh against me. I didn't write that crap, Ward did. And he surely didn't do that by his ideas alone and also surely not without consent of other designers, reviewers and the management. So GW is to blame, this didn't happen by mistake, but on purpose.

Btw, saying that units are "slightly unpriced" because it fits their theme in a discussion about balance is... nonsense.

[Baaltor]

No need to be so harsh against me. I didn't write that crap, Ward did. And he surely didn't do that by his ideas alone and also surely not without consent of other designers, reviewers and the management. So GW is to blame, this didn't happen by mistake, but on purpose.

Whoa whoa whoa! I didn't mean to come across as harsh, cool your jets. XD

I'll leave my opinions on how much stylistically a book takes after its authour out of this thread, but frankly it's disimilar to yours.

Btw, saying that units are "slightly unpriced" because it fits their theme in a discussion about balance is... nonsense.

I'm sorry, but a very large amount of players disagree with you on this. Whether it's correct or not is very debatable, but that it's 'nonsense' is entirely your opinion. I strongly believe in this sort of inconsistency, and think it can add a lot of depth to a game.

[Guyver 3]

Fw do need some special rule, how about charge reactions like in fantasy the charger rolls 2d6 and the tau have the option to stand and shoot or fall back d6 even if they are falling back there's a good chance they wont run off the table and can still shoot

Also i agree that pathfinders shouldn't have to take a devilfish and seeker support should be cheaper and more available.

most armies pay 15pts for a missle launcher that can be fired every turn, tau pay 10 for a one shot deal, it should either be more powerful for the points or pay 15 and get unlimited single shots.

[aim]

As people probably know I don't play the game, I just paint and read fluf, as such I'll not comment on effectiveness of units. However, looking at this thread there seems to be three groups of people here.

The first group are saying - "If I do all of this crazy theoretical math of situations that would never happen and ignore the fact that markerlights are insanely expensive, unreliable and not exactly effective, then firewarriors are amazing, they should cost loads!"

The second group are saying - "I've actually played as/against Tau quite a bit and from my experience in practice they are diabolically awful for their points cost."

The third group are saying - "They are 3 editions out of date and even if they weren't, comparing them to other codicies would be a bad idea anyway because the balancing is done internaly."

I'm not sure who I agree with, but I'm pretty certain its not the first group of folks lol.

[Clarkson]

only thing i'd give them for their points is overwatchj at full BS, that cant be tampered with... so a flat BS4 right on them? or BS3?

otherwise leave them be.. sure 10pts is alot.. but a tax of 70pts in to make and army work, is hardly anything to cry over... SM bike armies have to have a captain tax to field it.. CSM bike army has to have hq, 2 troops..

its not like they are bad either... sure they suck in CC, but they make up for it with a 30" range gun... not much can avoid their shooting range.. and on a 70pt squad to boot? ill sign up for that

[Clarkson]

As people probably know I don't play the game, I just paint and read fluf, as such I'll not comment on effectiveness of units. However, looking at this thread there seems to be three groups of people here.

The first group are saying - "If I do all of this crazy theoretical math of situations that would never happen and ignore the fact that markerlights are insanely expensive, unreliable and not exactly effective, then firewarriors are amazing, they should cost loads!"

The second group are saying - "I've actually played as/against Tau quite a bit and from my experience in practice they are diabolically awful for their points cost."

The third group are saying - "They are 3 editions out of date and even if they weren't, comparing them to other codicies would be a bad idea anyway because the balancing is done internaly."

I'm not sure who I agree with, but I'm pretty certain its not the first group of folks lol.

and im the 4th group of leave them as they are and quit bitchin about a decent unit.

ive played Tau in the past.. and had a FW heavy force (2 battle forces) and have survived getting charged by 20man Bezerkers, and my shas'ui held out through 5 turns of combat, killing a Bez a turn... and miraculously making saves..

granted its never happened again.. but it showed me that this game was a game of luck.

and getting charged isnt the be all and end all of fw.. i find if you keep kroot close by.. when fw get charged, charge them in next turn and wipe the look off the face of the dude as they cleave through the CC unit

[aim]

and im the 4th group of leave them as they are and quit bitchin about a decent unit.

ive played Tau in the past.. and had a FW heavy force (2 battle forces) and have survived getting charged by 20man Bezerkers, and my shas'ui held out through 5 turns of combat, killing a Bez a turn... and miraculously making saves..

granted its never happened again.. but it showed me that this game was a game of luck.

and getting charged isnt the be all and end all of fw.. i find if you keep kroot close by.. when fw get charged, charge them in next turn and wipe the look off the face of the dude as they cleave through the CC unit

One player getting lucky once does not excuse poor balance. I'm not saying they are poorly balanced, but as you just admitted yourself, your example is luck based from 2 editions ago, thus, not really relevant to the discussion.