How many points should a Fire Warrior cost?

[smileyface]

In other examples - like grenadiers - you really need to start at 13 points a model and work up for their cost as they are arguably not serviceable without their options.

Which is the problem. If a particular squad set-up is fine, but taking the specials out makes it useless, then the specials should cost more and the basics less. That way the functional squad set-ups can stay the same total cost while the basic troopers get cheaper, thus making more squad set-ups functional.

Like, say ten storm guardians with two flamers are an okay option (they aren't really, but run with it as an example), but ten storm guardians with no options are a pointless waste of time. The total cost for the squad with flamers should stay the same (92, currently), while the basic models should get cheaper. So we might (for the sake of argument) set the points cost of a model at 5, but then have the flamers cost 21 points each.

The rest of the argument came from the suggestion that orks were capable of outshooting tau thanks to their special weapon access

That was an example, and one I made a mess of. Somehow I was still on the third ed codex with the three guns per unit. It's been too long since I played orks.

Speaking of guardians, I bet they wish their weapon platform was artillery these days.

They wish they were anything else. Anything else at all. I might wind up using mine as allied fire warriors, even considering this thread.

[Eldoriath]

Firstly, the servitor is 3/ squad. Secondly, I assume you are trolling, as mindlock is a CRIPPLING special rule.

Yes, it's a bit of trolling on those that seem to think that special rules/gimmicks doesn't have any real impact on units price setting when it very much has. I'll copy-paste in my comparison of FW against normal IG and scouts.

Scouts: 13p for good stat line, equipment and special rules. Scouts/infiltrate is both worth a few points, also good options for equipment.
Imperial guard: 5p for poor stat and equipment.

Both have acess to upgrade weaponry which is always taken without fail (except if the scouts are to go into hth).

Firewarrior. Statline on par with IG but better save. Weapon and armor on par with a scout, but worse stat line and none of their special rules.

Question is: What is worth more? +6" range, 4+ save, +2S on the gun and AP5 on the gun. (the jump between IG and FW)
Or, is scout, infiltrate, ATSKNF, better statline (most importantly perhaps toughness) and access to a bunch of options worth so little compared to +6" range and +1S on the gun? (jump between FW and scout)

In this perspective I'd say that FW are clearly more fit to be 8p rather then 10p. I mean, +5p for a fixed option that is not all that changing. And only has to make a minor sacrifice to gain a bunch of perks for only another +3p?

[BaloOrk]

1 Shas`ui and 5 firewarriors 60pts, can buy up to 6 additional FW at 10 pts each
whole squad has blind grenades and pulse rifles/carbine, emp grenades for whole squad at 20pts
can buy 1 railrifle for every 6 models 10pts
can buy up to 2 gundrones at X points, depending on armament carbine/rifle/burst

[Adder007USA]

I believe my earlier point has been made based on the number of people saying 9+ based on things they'd ADD to the FW rather than what they actually are right now.

Again, I'd like to reiterate, there is just so much that needs to change about them before we can even think about the right points cost. I'd almost suggest this poll be restarted with clarification as to whether or not the question is "FW as they are right now, no changes" or "FW with potential supposed changes"

[TheMav80]

But lowering the cost, in and of itself, does nothing. You can make them (as they are now) 3pts a piece and I will still only take the minimum amount and use all those points I saved on Crisis Suits (or anything else) because it will be better points spent.

[Sazabi]

Yes, it's a bit of trolling on those that seem to think that special rules/gimmicks doesn't have any real impact on units price setting when it very much has. I'll copy-paste in my comparison of FW against normal IG and scouts.

Scouts: 13p for good stat line, equipment and special rules. Scouts/infiltrate is both worth a few points, also good options for equipment.
Imperial guard: 5p for poor stat and equipment.

Both have acess to upgrade weaponry which is always taken without fail (except if the scouts are to go into hth).

Firewarrior. Statline on par with IG but better save. Weapon and armor on par with a scout, but worse stat line and none of their special rules.

Question is: What is worth more? +6" range, 4+ save, +2S on the gun and AP5 on the gun. (the jump between IG and FW)
Or, is scout, infiltrate, ATSKNF, better statline (most importantly perhaps toughness) and access to a bunch of options worth so little compared to +6" range and +1S on the gun? (jump between FW and scout)

In this perspective I'd say that FW are clearly more fit to be 8p rather then 10p. I mean, +5p for a fixed option that is not all that changing. And only has to make a minor sacrifice to gain a bunch of perks for only another +3p?

Ha, then my apologies for a lack of good humor.

In regards to your points, I find Scouts to rather underwhelming. I tried running my Mechanicus army as all Scouts, no Marines. In the context of a Marine army, they are likely priced right, though they really can't hold and army together by themselves in my experience. Scouts just lack the teeth to be the main backbone. While I certainly see your point, the fact is that they pay for infiltrate and lack the knockdown power they need. 10 Scouts with Bolters just won't be able to compete with Firewarriors. I feel that 10pts a Firewarrior is decent, though I could see the argument for 9pts. That +2 strength really does make a difference, while trust me, BS3 Bolters and a Missile Launcher will not carry the day at 13Pts a pop, no matter how good a place you infiltrate them to. Though I would say that Firewarriors moral issue is very real. Perhaps if Etherials granted army wide ATSKNF, would Tau players finally break them out?

[Vaktathi]

But lowering the cost, in and of itself, does nothing. You can make them (as they are now) 3pts a piece and I will still only take the minimum amount and use all those points I saved on Crisis Suits (or anything else) because it will be better points spent.

Hrm, at 3ppm people would probably max out on them because at 216pts you get 72 S5 guns...if you're not loading out on them at that point you're insane, that's the cost of one crisis suit unit for more anti-infantry firepower than an IG SAFH and 6 scoring units

[Konovalev]

I don't think I understand your logic here. So because a codex allows you to bring a monsterous creature that creates more troops, Fire Warriors need a points reduction? Do you see how you can't draw a conclusion from that? Surely the Tervigon's ability to spawn termagaunts is factored into it's points value.

You're comparing apples and oranges with the deff dread and Fire Warrior. Two very different troops that are designed to do different things.

That was my point. That you can't simply say "oh well the line has blurred between troops and elites so lets start comparing troop choices to elite choices." Because clearly troop choices don't line up with elite choices even if those elite choices can be taken as troops under special circumstances.

[Goshawk]

That was my point. That you can't simply say "oh well the line has blurred between troops and elites so lets start comparing troop choices to elite choices." Because clearly troop choices don't line up with elite choices even if those elite choices can be taken as troops under special circumstances.

Ah. I must have missed the overall theme of your post then. I agree with what you are saying then.

[Gonefishing]

1 Shas`ui and 5 firewarriors 60pts, can buy up to 6 additional FW at 10 pts each
whole squad has blind grenades and pulse rifles/carbine, emp grenades for whole squad at 20pts
can buy 1 railrifle for every 6 models 10pts
can buy up to 2 gundrones at X points, depending on armament carbine/rifle/burst

And they would still be awful.

That would run in at 120 Points for a 12 man Squad with a 'UI, which is only 10 points cheaper than the current unit. The only thing the 'UI actually provides which is useful is the +1 Leadership, everything else is the same as a normal fire warrior (or irrelevant...+1 attack...hmmmmm), he has no access to any interesting/helpful special wargear. With 10pts per Rail Rifle this would boost the unit cost to 140 and give them 2 (BS3) S6 AP3 shots (which can only be snapfired if they move), that to my mind is not that much of a boost to there current firing, it would be better if you could arm the whole damn squad with rail rifles as then you could at least lay down some intimidating fire. Why bother with the option for the Carbine, it was underused in 5th and in 6th is an utterly pointless weapon in everyway.

Blind grenades are utterly pointless for Tau, ok, your opponent loses an attack - but he will still probablly wipe you out in CC, if he doesent, other than a tiny minority of situations, this will probablly not be to your advantage, as it means you cant shoot them in your turn and your opponent will finish wiping them out in the CC phase and be free to attack again next round. Giving the Unit EMP grenades now boosts the cost to 160 points (before you have even contemplated bying the Devilfish - which would take the cost to a minimum 240 pts), but again is utterly pointless and situational, are you really going to have Fire Warriors striding up the battlefield assualting vehicles? No, and your rail guns will do a far better job than the Fire Warriors with EMP's. The Gundrones I can understand as an option, but would prefer them to have a Fusion or Missile Pod option than any of the choices above, even with Carbines you would be pushing the unit cost to 180 Pts (260 with Devilfish).

260 points for a unit of Firewarriors in a Transport? Utter madness.

On top of this,it does not solve the issue of low morale, lack of survivability, inability to take or hold objectives and utter tactical one dimesion of the average Fire Warrior.

The worst part about the whole situation is that now the mighty Kroot have been nerfed into oblivion, Firewarriors are actually the best Troops choice in our Codex.... one of the worst Troops units in the entire game is our best troops unit....hoorah.

Personally I think I will stick to using Battle Brother allies and borrowing their Troops choices - this seems a better plan than relying on Fire Warriors.

[Xerkics]

You realise that buffs to fire warriors would possibly be at the cost of flexibility of crisis suits if they do it . Also re giving special weapons to Fire warriors doesnt make much sense as they are supposed to represent focused units as part of combined warfare approach and if we follow this only thing they can ever get better at is shooting.
A Tau player i used to play against always brought large units of fire warriors and they were absolutely filthy . I agree they suck if you keep bringing just min squad in a box but with multiple max sized squads the amount of fire power is absolutely overwhelming. Contrary to what you might think footslogging fire warriors are actually good you just have to try them. Never playing them in large numbers and claiming they are bad when all you ever bring is min man squad isnt really convincing anyone.

I havent played against the tau in the 6th yet but i foresee fire warriors are going to be a lot more survivable with how you can no longer charge from outflank for example or after deploying. And regarding better stats : The only way FW will get better stats if they have str 4 weapons. Str5 range 30 rifle + good overall stats just isnt going to happen im afraid chums. I can see Better morale and wargear options but not better quality of basic troops. Besides now with ally rules if you must you can always have smaller crisis spam unit and get a space marine chaplain or some other character and stick it in your fw unit presto good morale and some cc ability.

[Drasanil]

it would be better if you could arm the whole damn squad with rail rifles as then you could at least lay down some intimidating fire.

Would you like them to be 7ppm too?

[KingDeath]

Would you like them to be 7ppm too?

No, i assume he just wants Firewarriors to be useful, something they aren't atm.

[Drasanil]

No, i assume he just wants Firewarriors to be useful, something they aren't atm.

I'm sorry I must have confused absurd and useful there for a second, basic troops all kitted out with S6 AP3 guns is totally reasonable now that I had a second chance to think about it... my mistake

If that's the case I hope GW give dark reapers, S7 AP2 Assault 2 guns and a points cut.

[Xerkics]

I'm sorry I must have confused absurd and useful there for a second, basic troops all kitted out with S6 AP3 guns is totally reasonable now that I had a second chance to think about it... my mistake

If that's the case I hope GW give dark reapers, S7 AP2 Assault 2 guns and a points cut.

Doesnt Forgeworld already have their own homebrew aspect which has essentially that?

[Drasanil]

Doesnt Forgeworld already have their own homebrew aspect which has essentially that?

IIRC Shadow Specters are S6, AP3, 18", Heavy 1 (jetpacks though) but can combine to make bigger shots like fire prisms. They're also north of 30ppm. Pretty sweet but expensive money wise and they get the forgeworld stigma (YMMV).

[Eldoriath]

Ha, then my apologies for a lack of good humor.

In regards to your points, I find Scouts to rather underwhelming. I tried running my Mechanicus army as all Scouts, no Marines. In the context of a Marine army, they are likely priced right, though they really can't hold and army together by themselves in my experience. Scouts just lack the teeth to be the main backbone. While I certainly see your point, the fact is that they pay for infiltrate and lack the knockdown power they need. 10 Scouts with Bolters just won't be able to compete with Firewarriors. I feel that 10pts a Firewarrior is decent, though I could see the argument for 9pts. That +2 strength really does make a difference, while trust me, BS3 Bolters and a Missile Launcher will not carry the day at 13Pts a pop, no matter how good a place you infiltrate them to. Though I would say that Firewarriors moral issue is very real. Perhaps if Etherials granted army wide ATSKNF, would Tau players finally break them out?

No worries mate, no harm done =)

Yeah, scouts as a backbone of an army is underwhelming. They are best used as a support element to the tactical back bone. I don't really play SM, but it's quite easy to see that 1-2 units of scouts is more then enough of them in a ordinary army.

But still, the FW has the same kind of lacking back-bone quality. They are too expensive to be cheap, and too fragile to be staying. If you plonk down 13 firewarriors and 10 scouts and throw heavy bolters at them it takes 16 hits to kill the FW and 15 hits to kill the scouts. So they are quite equal there with a very slight advantage for the FWs. Against bolter fire it will take 39 hits to kill the FW and 40 shots to kill the scouts. So against small arms/standard weaponry the scouts come out extremely slightly more survivabel then FWs.

But, and this is actually a big but, the scouts still have all these extra rules and options that the FW lack. Yes, some of the rules can be a bit reduntant in overbundance and such, but even though they are still an equal or better back bone of an army then FW.

That is why I advocate 8p. The FW are supposed to be the backbone of the army, not a support unit you take 1-2 of.

And yes, giving the ethereals the old rules about giving the army re-rolls for Ld tests just by being taken and alive could make them appear again if you cut back a bit on the downside. As it is now people actaully play suicide ethereal tactics since the ethereal is more usefull dead then alive...

SNIP. And regarding better stats : The only way FW will get better stats if they have str 4 weapons. Str5 range 30 rifle + good overall stats just isnt going to happen im afraid chums. SNIP.

Good overall stats? That's the first time I've heard someone say that worsened guardsmenstats are good. But yeah, increased BS wouldn't really help them since I'd rather have more FW then have fewer that hit better. They still die too quickly.

[KingDeath]

I'm sorry I must have confused absurd and useful there for a second, basic troops all kitted out with S6 AP3 guns is totally reasonable now that I had a second chance to think about it... my mistake

If that's the case I hope GW give dark reapers, S7 AP2 Assault 2 guns and a points cut.

S6 AP3, if appropriately priced, wouldn't be impossible. Other books have troops which come equiped with terminator armour, forceweapons, powerfists and quite a few other things.
Still, some drones with railrifles as a possible upgrade, might be a better decision for Firewarriors. Of course, this would not change the sad fact that Firewarriors are overpriced unless the upgrade is realy cheap, which would make it mandatory and therefore a bad design decision.

[Xerkics]

S6 AP3, if appropriately priced, wouldn't be impossible. Other books have troops which come equiped with terminator armour, forceweapons, powerfists and quite a few other things.
Still, some drones with railrifles as a possible upgrade, might be a better decision for Firewarriors. Of course, this would not change the sad fact that Firewarriors are overpriced unless the upgrade is realy cheap, which would make it mandatory and therefore a bad design decision.

Well troops is supposed to represent your average infantry man that most of your forces made up with. s6 ap3 weapon is the kind of gun you give to your elites. SOme armies can make their elites count as troops with special characters, thats like 0.0001% of actual army composition in real terms just the elite force 1 guy has.
I dont see why some Tau commander couldnt have say His crack squad of Telion trained fire warriors like pyrhian immortals anrakyr gets.

[MajorWesJanson]

S6 AP3, if appropriately priced, wouldn't be impossible. Other books have troops which come equiped with terminator armour, forceweapons, powerfists and quite a few other things.
Still, some drones with railrifles as a possible upgrade, might be a better decision for Firewarriors. Of course, this would not change the sad fact that Firewarriors are overpriced unless the upgrade is realy cheap, which would make it mandatory and therefore a bad design decision.

The sniper drones already mount railrifles. It would be easy to make them an upgrade drone option.
Drones, with some changes, would help fire warriors quite a bit, if you drop the prices to be more usable. Say a 5 point drop across the board for drones, and make the drone controller free. Add grenade options, shas ui upgrade, and bonding knife into the base 60 point squad. Drop the devilfish by about 10-15 points, but make disruption pods a 15 point upgrade that adds 1 to jink saves.