The new Screamers and Flamers

[Vomikron Noxis]

What are your thoughts on unit sizes for the new and improved Flamers and Screamers? I was thinking somewhere between 6 and 9 for Screamers, and sticking with the sacrificial 3 for Flamers. Would a bigger unit be better? And is a Pyrocaster even worth the 5pts?

[Vsurma]

What are your thoughts on unit sizes for the new and improved Flamers and Screamers? I was thinking somewhere between 6 and 9 for Screamers, and sticking with the sacrificial 3 for Flamers. Would a bigger unit be better? And is a Pyrocaster even worth the 5pts?

3*9 seems to be the optimal screamers size

Flamers work great in huge units vs CC enemies, small ones against most others.

[kaintxu]

I think 9 is about what you need for screamers due to their low save, even having 2 wounds, some are going to drop, and you wanna get to combat with a couple

On the flamers side, I think about 6 is the optimal number.

[Infidel]

I think 9 is about what you need for screamers due to their low save, even having 2 wounds, some are going to drop, and you wanna get to combat with a couple

On the flamers side, I think about 6 is the optimal number.

I think 6 flamers is overkill most of the time. With that said though, the old suicide flamer mentality might warrant some changing after the changes. They're resonably tougher, costs less, can overwatch and with the shift away from pure mech, they might find more viable targets.

With the ability to wound-allocate, I think Tzeentch herald might not be a terrible idea. They can lead the charge and then use LoS to make sure all the incoming wounds via shooting gets evenly spread out between the screamers.

[bebe]

I'm actually thinking of using a Slaanesh Herald with them. Musk, Might and Pavane. I can move the herald between flamers and screamers.

[Infidel]

I'm actually thinking of using a Slaanesh Herald with them. Musk, Might and Pavane. I can move the herald between flamers and screamers.

EDIT: No! It's the screamers ot Tzeentch! Daemonic Rivary will forbid ICs from another god from joining another unit that doesn't match their alignment.

[CrownAxe]

I'm actually thinking of using a Slaanesh Herald with them. Musk, Might and Pavane. I can move the herald between flamers and screamers.

You can't put a herald of slaanesh in a unit of tzeentch

[Exc20002001]

With the ability to wound-allocate, I think Tzeentch herald might not be a terrible idea. They can lead the charge and then use LoS to make sure all the incoming wounds via shooting gets evenly spread out between the screamers.

The idea of being able to save a possible 2 screamers per turn is awesome. Problem funnily enough is that the HoT might not be able to keep up with the screamers, as a jumper he goes 12. Chariots don't join so that's a fail. Maybe during overwatch but that's a lot of effort and not reliable.

With a large unit of flamers this is possible though. If we decided we wanted bigger units and wanted them to live this is a option.

I think the small units of suicide flamers with big units of screamers is far more intimidating.

[Infidel]

The idea of being able to save a possible 2 screamers per turn is awesome. Problem funnily enough is that the HoT might not be able to keep up with the screamers, as a jumper he goes 12. Chariots don't join so that's a fail. Maybe during overwatch but that's a lot of effort and not reliable.

With a large unit of flamers this is possible though. If we decided we wanted bigger units and wanted them to live this is a option.

I think the small units of suicide flamers with big units of screamers is far more intimidating.

I had my fourth 6th ed game today. Against - you guessed it! Daemon with a buttload of proxied screamers. 27 of them to be exact, then Fateweaver, PBs and a few small squads of flamers. Screamers don't survive for very long, even with their buffed stat. You need Fatey in there to keep them going. I was able to kite for a bit but just one turn of shooting (30 gauss flayers and 3 tesla destructors) and then the overwatch (not all that effective, but still took away 2 screamer models) meant that they were reduced to less than half of their number by the time they made combat.

When they did they were frighteningly effective (took out both of my Ghost Arks) but then promptly vaporised in the next shooting phase. Then the flamers came in and toasted half of my troops. The outcome of the game came down to whether the Doomscythes could clean out his Plaguebearers fast enough. Being able to LoS the overwatch wounds from the Flamers was perhaps an unfair advantage.

In sum, they will absolutely wreck high value targets, but don't expect them to survive the process. Combining flamers and screamers is very good. The screamer busts the mech and explode and then flamers clean up the troops that bailed out of the transport.

[Exc20002001]

I had my fourth 6th ed game today. Against - you guessed it! Daemon with a buttload of proxied screamers. 27 of them to be exact, then Fateweaver, PBs and a few small squads of flamers. Screamers don't survive for very long, even with their buffed stat. You need Fatey in there to keep them going.

Been afraid of this for some time now but was hoping people would have better luck than me...

I remember my Fiends always running into this problem even with Fateweaver, though the screamers should do slightly better. Lets take a close look at this though anyway:

60 Hits from Gauss Flayers against 4+ Cover is 7.5 wounds
3 Tesla Destructors would against 4+ Cover is 4.167 wounds

11.5 wounds around so 5-6 dead a turn on average ouch. But that's exposing yourself to 3 Necron warrior squads and a few vehicles, still don't think this is likely. Running with Fateweaver (and still the only way to do it I feel) this would mean half that would get through so around 3 wounds, meaning only 1 - 2 models out of a full 9 man daemon squad. Not bad at all. Really don't think they would use all of the shots on the screamers though when Fateweaver is running about.

When a 5++ is involved though that's when I worry a little, resulting in 10, and 5.556 wounds respectively. That's almost the whole squad which sucks, but if we are running 27 surely we should still be able to rip it up. In combat the warriors will get mauled. Would just have to keep an eye out for wraiths.

This summary of wound results doesn't prove too much , but taking them against the best army out there and still proving great shows good times for the warp.

[bebe]

Of course Necrons are going to be difficult to deal with - I think that is expected overall. Volume odf dakka will wreak havoc on daemons and going to a heavy FMC list will not help - they can take out flyers. Now they have 2 wounds each and you can fire on those in LoS so I think some of the wounds can be mitigated. I'm curious .. did your opponent do any pass overs with the screamers?

[Infidel]

Having been a Daemon vet, I think there are about 2 things you can do against Fateweaver.

A. Kill Fateweaver
B. Kill whatever Fateweaver is protecting.

There is a good reason why Fatecrusher was the staple - it is often easier to kill Fateweaver than to kill a single Bloodcrusher from a fully wound-allocated squad. In my game, it was clear the the screamers was the primary target. I don't care much about Fatey since the Wraiths will eat him. Something I left out was the screening of vehicles with the wraiths. He was desperately trying not to get the wraiths involved in the fight so not every screamer made combat. He also had to move around Imhotekh's unit because he didn't want to multi-charge while eating 10 more rapidfire gauss/flamer but was unable to do so.

Still, they took out both Ghost Arks in one turn.

Also, given the tiny size of Fateweaver's bubble, it's actually resonably difficult to get perfect coverage when you're deepstriking such large units.

Also I think your maths is a bit off. 60 flayer shots do 10 wounds on average and 3 tesla destructors will do 6.67 wounds. The Destructors are twin-linked and actually score more than one hit per shot on aveage. The odd things I left out were things like the two Deathrays. They contributed a bit. All up I killed about 10 Screamers on my turn and then 4 more on overwatch (they were out of Fatey coverage then).

The flamer was very painful though. I lost 12 of my 20 tin men after the dust settled, 4 stood back up. Then Wraiths carried the game from there. I shot 2 squads of flamers off the board and Wraiths just hulked out in a giant combat against Screamers and the last squad of flamers. Fatey ate my two small squads and all I had left was Imhotekh and 6 warrior models whereas his 2 squads of PBs were largely intact. Wraiths ate fatey after they were done with the flamers/screamers and then it was me holding 1 objective to his two.

Like i said, the rest of the game was my Scythes trying to see if I can kill the Plaguebearers fast enough while the Wraiths/Lord tried to contest the objective closer to mine. In the end the game was a 2-2 draw. He scored First Blood, Line Breaker and denied my objective with a lucky last turn move. I got Line Breaker, Slay the Warlord and had I gotten another turn, would have wiped his screamers (who just refuses to die in the last few turns)

It was a very tight game on objectives, even though I have very very nearly tabled him when the game ended. I should probably turn this into a batrep.

[Exc20002001]

3 tesla destructors will do 6.67 wounds. The Destructors are twin-linked and actually score more than one hit per shot on aveage.

Didn't count the Twin linked yup

I should probably turn this into a batrep.

Please do

Deepstriking with screamers I believe shouldn't be that difficult. Imagine a 24 inch diameter around Fateweaver. Now that is your deepstrike range. All you need to do is turbo boost towards fateweaver and reap. I'm more concerned about mishapping and not all coming out when we would prefer.

Did you find your scythes were even mildly threatened though?

[Infidel]

Did you find your scythes were even mildly threatened though?

Naw. Other than my Arks and my troops (who got MOLESTED), the rest of the army was largely unscathed. LoS! managed to wound-allocate the overwatch wounds so throughout the game I only lost 2 out of 6 wraiths.

On the matter of Screamers - there were a few terrain pieces on the board, the LGS had set up neutral fortress of redemption that was up for grabs. I suspect as a cross-promotion effort to get people to buy some Fortresses.

[Infidel]

Did you find your scythes were even mildly threatened though?

Naw. Other than my Arks and my troops (who got MOLESTED), the rest of the army was largely unscathed. LoS! managed to wound-allocate the overwatch wounds so throughout the game I only lost 2 out of 6 wraiths.

On the matter of Screamers - there were a few terrain pieces on the board, the LGS had set up neutral fortress of redemption that was up for grabs. I suspect as a cross-promotion effort to get people to buy some Fortresses.

[nosebiter]

Lol, you can name dozens of 40k units that are "cheesebrokenfilth" if you spam them. Now deamons have a unit too.

Or you could choose not to spam, and you mates would actually like playing against you.

[Exc20002001]

Lol, you can name dozens of 40k units that are "cheesebrokenfilth" if you spam them. Now deamons have a unit too.
Or you could choose not to spam, and you mates would actually like playing against you.

Another thing that broken units do is that they bring out the competitive player in you. You just get too tempted and eventually buy a couple. Realizing how powerful they are you decide to purchase a whole army made up of them because 'you enjoyed that moment where they smashed your mates old good units'. Next thing you are both only pretending to enjoy the game and just want to win.

Above is the experience I have been in or seen, it's sad.

That's why I really wanted to get started on a Iron Warriors or Imperial fists army tbh. Make something really basic and go along to game days for fun saving the stupid lists for the tournaments. But then that's why half of us are on these forums posting every 2nd day aren't we

Broken units always exist making any amateur player look good. But you really can't discount smart players, a good tactic is a good tactic (and that does include list building)