Tyranid Shooting

[Xerkics]

Im curious why are none of the tyranid guns ap3? I dont count zoanthropes cause these are psychic powers. Even the best str 10 260 points tyrranofex can only achieve is ap4. Is that a concsious design decision gw made so that needs cant shoot marines dead?

[Col. von Dryden]

Originally a design decision. They wanted nids to have multiple shots, not good at AP design. Still ask why there's no "acid" weapon with an AP of 3 or 2.... Then I remember we didn't need it in previous editions, then Cruddace made our current dex.

[Gig]

Bio-Plasma is an AP2 shooting attack or do you literally mean no ap3 as in nothing between 2 and 4 ?

[Gingerwerewolf]

Its the design Ethos of Tyranids - Why have one thing that is very good at doing its job when you can have 100 times as many that are 25% as good.

Overwhelm by numbers and this accounts for shooting too.

Nids were designed with a flawed ethos though. They are the only army designed to be the bad guys. There is nothing that makes them good, no angle that can be taken to see their point of view.

This makes them very hard to get an design on where you, as the designer, dont want them to fail.

Cruddace suffers from that all through the book, the whole thing is written from the Imperial point of view and how the Tyranids are being fought off - but at what cost.

Its a similar thing as to why there is nothing in there that has a higher T than 6.

AV 10 = not damageable by Str 3
T 6 is wounded on a 6

Its why we've struggled

[Xerkics]

Bio-Plasma is an AP2 shooting attack or do you literally mean no ap3 as in nothing between 2 and 4 ?

I guess Crudface felt its safe enough to put on a Carnifex which he made so bad.

[Vepr]

I don't have a problem with Tyranids having short range weapons with little to no AP, in some ways it makes sense for a more assaulted oriented strictly bio-engineered army . Unfortunately if you couple it with the poorly designed rush job that is the current Tyranid codex it becomes an issue. I do not know if it is true or not but it has been mentioned that Cruddace said he does not even like Tyranids. It is easy enough to believe looking at their codex.

[Archon Deloth Vyrr]

Because Nids can put out an insane amount of shots. They can put out shots that don't need LOS and ignore cover and intervening terrain. I don't care what the AP is on Twin Linked Devourers, I'm wounding so many times your unit is gonna die anyways, armorsave or no.

[Xerkics]

Because Nids can put out an insane amount of shots. They can put out shots that don't need LOS and ignore cover and intervening terrain. I don't care what the AP is on Twin Linked Devourers, I'm wounding so many times your unit is gonna die anyways, armorsave or no.

Point is shouldnt at least tyrranofex gun or heavy venom cannon be ap3? Considering how expensive the platsform is and its not like you get lots of shots.

[Murphey]

Honestly, the Tyranid codex is just terribly balanced and written. The CC units don't have access to frag grenades, the MC's explode if anyone with ID weapons show up, and the Carnifexs lost 90+% of their options. On top of it, they lost the ability to field elite MCs, their shooting actually got worse (didn't think that was possible), and for some insane reason they decided to come up with the stupid idea that Tyranids now eat souls.

I think Cruddace's thought behind the lack of ap3 weaponry had more to do with the thought that Tyranids would be able to kill MEQ units effectively in CC. Now, the fact is they don't exactly pull that off as advertised. But hey, maybe there'll be a new codex in about 4 years.

[Draconis]

Honestly, the Tyranid codex is just terribly balanced and written. The CC units don't have access to frag grenades, the MC's explode if anyone with ID weapons show up, and the Carnifexs lost 90+% of their options. On top of it, they lost the ability to field elite MCs, their shooting actually got worse (didn't think that was possible), and for some insane reason they decided to come up with the stupid idea that Tyranids now eat souls.

I think Cruddace's thought behind the lack of ap3 weaponry had more to do with the thought that Tyranids would be able to kill MEQ units effectively in CC. Now, the fact is they don't exactly pull that off as advertised. But hey, maybe there'll be a new codex in about 4 years.

Actually, they'll be destroying MEQs in combat. Bone Swords are AP 2, rending is AP2, MC's are AP2, etc etc etc. Uberguants are now really, really good as well.

[Corvus Corone]

Actually, they'll be destroying MEQs in combat. Bone Swords are AP 2, rending is AP2, MC's are AP2, etc etc etc. Uberguants are now really, really good as well.

You mean hormagaunts with AG/TS?

Do you play tyranids? 10pts/ model, t3, 6+ save; you're usually striking last if there's any terrain on the board, and they're not as fast as they were in 5th, plus now overwatch and rapid fire changes mean you're lucky if half of a brood of 30 (a 300pts investment) make it into combat, where against all but guard/ tau too many will die before striking to make it worthwhile.

Yes, you can use them well here and there, if you really try, but saying they're good is a bit of a stretch. Genstealers are better and they're pretty badly mauled by 6th too.

OT: I find my shooting is fine for vehicles now. HUll points have made a big difference to TL/ Brainleech devs + impalers. However, shooting is as poor against marines as it ever was; you just have to hope for a couple of kills here and there, like bonus kills to make the CC achievable.

[Murphey]

I'm gonna agree with Corvus here. Don't get me wrong, the Tyranid codex does have some decent stuff, but the army doesn't flow for crap. Other armies can out shoot the hell out of Nids due to their weaker guns/BS and terrible armor saves. Which means to really have an edge, you have to get into CC. Oops, but the army doesn't get any frag grenade equivalent. Looks like those super expensive warriors that somehow made it across the board all are going at the same init as powerfists. Which means those 3 wounds mean nothing, and it's instant death time.

Now, all potential hyperbole aside, I'm sure there is some effective army build out there for the 'Nids, especially if you avoid a lot of their weakpoints. But seriously, can anyone say that a fairly new codex pulling off maybe one potential build so long as you avoid half of the elements in the game is anywhere near reasonable or effective? I sure as hell can't.

P.S. AP3 weapons are actually a fairly recent push for the game. For a long time during 4th, the only ap3 weapons I knew about were the battle cannons or Tau Rail Riffles. There seems to have been a far heavier push towards more mid-good ap weapons over the last edition or so. But the 'Nids being a (hah) 'close combat army' means they kind of missed out on it.

[Threeshades]

I'm gonna agree with Corvus here. Don't get me wrong, the Tyranid codex does have some decent stuff, but the army doesn't flow for crap. Other armies can out shoot the hell out of Nids due to their weaker guns/BS and terrible armor saves. Which means to really have an edge, you have to get into CC. Oops, but the army doesn't get any frag grenade equivalent. Looks like those super expensive warriors that somehow made it across the board all are going at the same init as powerfists. Which means those 3 wounds mean nothing, and it's instant death time.

Now, all potential hyperbole aside, I'm sure there is some effective army build out there for the 'Nids, especially if you avoid a lot of their weakpoints. But seriously, can anyone say that a fairly new codex pulling off maybe one potential build so long as you avoid half of the elements in the game is anywhere near reasonable or effective? I sure as hell can't.

P.S. AP3 weapons are actually a fairly recent push for the game. For a long time during 4th, the only ap3 weapons I knew about were the battle cannons or Tau Rail Riffles. There seems to have been a far heavier push towards more mid-good ap weapons over the last edition or so. But the 'Nids being a (hah) 'close combat army' means they kind of missed out on it.

I agree on all accounts except: Missile Launchers. Those have been AP3 all along.

[Elios Harg]

Tyranids have some really impressive builds now for 6th, the only bad thing about the book in 6th edition is that it has poor internal balance.

[DEADMARSH]

I agree on all accounts except: Missile Launchers. Those have been AP3 all along.

Yup, 8/3. It is kind of odd there's always been more stuff that's AP2 than AP3 though. Or at least it seems that way with the armies I've played and played against.

Back in the day (4th ed, when 'Nids were king, at least around my parts), they didn't need any low AP shooting to be effective. Mechanized meta didn't exist and rending worked differently than it does now. I admit I am not a 'Nid player, but if you ask me, those two changes are integral as to why 'Nids are much less effective than their past incarnations; it has little to do with shooting or low AP shots really. I played against a lot of 'Nid lists that didn't rely on shooting at all in the previous editions that were still quite effective.

[Corvus Corone]

Yup, 8/3. It is kind of odd there's always been more stuff that's AP2 than AP3 though. Or at least it seems that way with the armies I've played and played against.

Back in the day (4th ed, when 'Nids were king, at least around my parts), they didn't need any low AP shooting to be effective. Mechanized meta didn't exist and rending worked differently than it does now. I admit I am not a 'Nid player, but if you ask me, those two changes are integral as to why 'Nids are much less effective than their past incarnations; it has little to do with shooting or low AP shots really. I played against a lot of 'Nid lists that didn't rely on shooting at all in the previous editions that were still quite effective.

I seem to remember we used to get re-rolls to wound on most shooting with living ammo back then.

Oh Cruddace. I kind of feel like he's the dastardly enemy for whom you feel nothing but justice when he meets with a horrendous death at the end of the film. I'm sure he's a great chap and the IG codex shows he can do at least some things quite well. But he really dropped the ball with tyranids, and everyone knows it.

[DEADMARSH]

I seem to remember we used to get re-rolls to wound on most shooting with living ammo back then.

Oh Cruddace. I kind of feel like he's the dastardly enemy for whom you feel nothing but justice when he meets with a horrendous death at the end of the film. I'm sure he's a great chap and the IG codex shows he can do at least some things quite well. But he really dropped the ball with tyranids, and everyone knows it.

Even the IG codex has it's useless and goofy units though. Imagine for a second if the IG codex was released under 6th with hull points in play. How good is it then?

That's all I'm saying- I think the IG codex is more a result of 5th ed being easy on vehicles and units in vehicles- both of which IG excel at more than Cruddace doing a great job with one and a crappy job with the other. I think he's definitely still developing as a rules-writer and has a ways to go yet before he can knock out a solid codex.

[DEADMARSH]

I seem to remember we used to get re-rolls to wound on most shooting with living ammo back then.

Oh Cruddace. I kind of feel like he's the dastardly enemy for whom you feel nothing but justice when he meets with a horrendous death at the end of the film. I'm sure he's a great chap and the IG codex shows he can do at least some things quite well. But he really dropped the ball with tyranids, and everyone knows it.

Even the IG codex has it's useless and goofy units though. Imagine for a second if the IG codex was released under 6th with hull points in play. How good is it then?

That's all I'm saying- I think the IG codex is more a result of 5th ed being easy on vehicles and units in vehicles- both of which IG excel at more than Cruddace doing a great job with one and a crappy job with the other. I think he's definitely still developing as a rules-writer and has a ways to go yet before he can knock out a solid codex.

[Transgressor]

I did always find it odd that the impaler cannons on the hive guard are described as going through concrete or other hardened structures to hit targets and then have AP4...

I miss the old options for the biovore shots, the acid ones were nice. I feel like we should have more options for stuff like that. An acid themed nid list would be cool I think.

Maybe we'll get lucky and see a WD fix/update like daemons. Expect everything bad to be made good. Pyrovores will be made T6 with a S6 AP3 flamer or some such nonsense. Can't let those models sit on the shelves forever...

[Harwammer]

I guess this means a 3+ save is meant to represent armour made from a super-material?