I'm currently playing a Biel-Tan army, and I'm trying to build an aspect-warriors heavy list. I used to play something quite balanced and mechanized with DA, FD and some SS too. However, with the changes brought by 6th edition, I've been wondering how to build a proper Biel-Tan list: can we still rely on serpents to bring fire dragons to the front line? How to use scorpions? What about shining spear and the new jetbikes moves?
Fellows eldar players, what's your opinion on this subject?
I'm an ex-eldar player, but still follow the forums and youtube gurus. Biel-tain was always an interesting list. It's just a shame you can't build the court since the latest codex. I might go with Phoenix Lords instead if I were going to do something like that. Probably Asurman and Karandras... I know, no Avatar but you're getting two pretty decent fighters. Another option would be to use Autarchs as stand-ins for exarchs. If you played 2000+ points you could stick 3 or 4 of them together.
Anyway, to your questions... I would say that yes, generally speaking you could play the way you did... until turn 2 or 3. After that your transports, Serpents and Falcons, are going to have a rough time. So keep em cheap. Maybe spirit stones, but that's it. no Holo-fields for sure.
Fire-dragons will always be a staple of any Eldar army. I would even go with 10 of them. Overkill on vehicles, but great way to deal with assaulters on overwatch... Scorpions are pretty strong, they're not as slow as they used to be or rather eldar aren't as fleety as they used to be. Still weak vs power weapons but they can still thin out the enemies' numbers with all their attacks before the enemy gets a change to strike. Again full squad. If you take Karandras, he obviously boosts the squad... fearless, +1 to cover saves/ 6+ even in the open. But you can also make him the warlord and give him a trait power. I recommend the personal traits. They all compliment him no matter what you get. counter attack, outflank or furious charge for him and the unit, feel no pain when within 3" of an objective, bonus VP for killing characters in a challenge.. and sgts and the like are characters now... or make himself a scoring unit.
Either way, scorpions gotta stay on the board... no rides for them. They need to get in to assault as soon as possible. So they really need their exarch powers. I might give the exarch the biting blade instead of a claw though.. as a way to deal with dreadnoughts... or any vehicles for that matter.
Shining spears... even worse than in 5th ed. Their lances got nerfed. only AP3 on the turn they charge, AP4 in subsequent rounds. Just too expensive for what they do... even with hit and run they just don't have strong enough attacks to back up their limited number of attacks. I would go with Warp spiders instead. The jetbikes' moves are cool for positioning but otherwise they haven't changed much except being better at killing light vehicles with their shuriken cannons because of Hull Point rules.
So if I were you, I might go with a big unit of fire dragons in a wave serpent backed up by two big units of dire avengers also in wave serpents. A couple of small units of bikes jetbikes with shuriken cannons to harass and crack open enemy transports and maybe deny/steal an objective or 2. Some warp spiders to do the same as the jetbikes but also support the Scorpions in the assault. Maybe some dark reapers and a small squad of Dire avengers in falcons to add some more fire power. Falcons; again keep basic, focus on anti-infantry to thin out any large infantry blobs before your assaulters clean them up.
Speaking of assaulters, Howling Banshees are also alright but they're not as deadly or mobile as they used to be, so can't keep up with warp spiders or deploy forward like scorpions. So maybe best to leave them out, or only as a small unit. Also if you take a farseer, probably the rulebook powers are more suited to your army than the standard codex ones. Again recommend Khandaras, but Asurman is pretty hard as too. An autarch could be useful and cheap though.
Well, the problem is that Eldar CC aspects are now kindof bad.
-No assaulting out of transports kills banshees for me
-Striking Scorpions are slow
-Harlequins are stuck at footslogging
-Also, Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent are even more suicidal in 6th edition, and expensive to boot
(and shining spears are still too few attacks on an expensive model, have AP3, and get S3 hammer of wrath attacks)
That being said, I believe you can make Mechdar/Aspects work in 6th edition
The good things in 6th:
Dire Avengers
-With waveserpents and pre-measuring, it is now easy to get 2 squads of them to stay at extreme range and shoot. Average charge range for normal people is 13", bar any difficult terrain, so you have around 5" depending on how lucky you feel/how many casualties you expect the enemy to take. (yes, yes, get all the "that's what she said jokes out of your system now)
-Doom is effective as ever, so having a target eat ~40 shuriken shots to the face is going to leave a dent
-If you roll up the psychic power misfortune (easier to do if you run Eldrad), you can reliably kill terminators with these things
-I'm also a fan of taking exarchs with dual catapults and bladestorm now
-recommend 2-3 squads
Warp Spiders
-Got a buff, with Ap- not giving a -1 to damage chart.
-Not much to say about these guys that hasnt already been said, I tend to deepstrike mine to hunt tanks, or to reinforce my "fast moving" wing
-recommend 1-2 squads, your other fast attacks should be vypers
Vypers
-while not aspect warriors, these are now fairly good backup to any fast moving force. 70 pts for 7 S6 shots is nothing to be sneezed at.
Dark Reapers
-Got a buff, I've never used them myself (preferring my falcons and wraithlords), so I can't offer you advice on them.
-However, seems like you roll up the "ignores cover" power and can murder marines all day any day
As for anti AV13 and AV14
-Fire Dragons are now even more suicidal, so I would take Dark Eldar allies to deal with these.
-Has the added benefit of letting you take Incubi, so you can "pretend" they are CC Aspect Warriors
My painting log, Alaitoc Eldar and Dark Angels:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...89#post5897489
Originally Posted by Cthell
Thanks for the answers guys. You both have interesting points of view.
I'm really not sure that Biel-Tan eldars would ally with DE, considering they (Biel-Tan) are xenophobic traditionnalists. But I suppose that TheDoctor was saying I could play incubi as some exotic aspect warriors, considering some modelling work. Not a bad idea...
I'm quite a fan of Karandras, and I really would like to build something around him.
The problem with Asurmen is that he's a close combat beast... that can only join firepower specialists!!! Even with a dire sword/pistol or power weapon/shimmershield exarch, I feel like this kind of unit wouldn't work 100%. Any experience running him?
Another problem is to get AT13-14 while trying to go full aspect. It's hard to avoid Fire Dragons, but it's now kind of risky to rely on serpents. Fuegan could be a nice addition to a huge FD squad, but way too much overkill to my mind. But I think I don't really have the choice. Alternatively, I have been considering a wraithlord (since they often are former aspect warriors, and I made a custom dark reaper WL), with a BL and LME, but being full aspects would mean no warlocks, thus a WL doing nothing if I roll a 1... What about hawks? I've heard they could be ok as anti-tank in 6th?
As for Dark Reapers, I've been running them in a couple of games and they've been doing quite well - although I wonder if they really fit a "blitzkrieg" type of attack like the Bahzhakhain! If they do, Maugan-Ra could be a decent choice too, although he lacks AT power...
Sure, Biel-Tan is xenophobic. That doesn't apply to Dark Eldar. The clue is in the name
The three best phoenix lords are Fuegan, Maugan Ra, and Karandras (my opinion).
The problem is is that, of those three, only Karandras really fits in with his aspect. And the problem you mentioned with Asurmen is the problem Maugan Ra, Asurmen, and Baharroth have- CC beasts in a ranged aspect.
Fuegan and Maugan Ra generally work best in Harlequin or Warlock squads. They provide some nice durability and, in the case of Warlocks, some nice power weapon hits.
Hawks are still overpriced.
One thing that I see a lot of people forgetting is that Biel-tan (or any faction with some sort of "preference") is a full Craftworld. That means there ARE stuff other than Aspects, like seers and guardians, and the non-aspect stuff is a good way to get the Biel-tan colors on your models.
Alternatively, the Dark Eldar allies could be a good way to showcase that Biel-tan is more militant, with the increased statlines of Warriors over Guardians. I also remember reading the description of the Nightspinner from Epic that Biel-tan put viral weapons in the monofilament web, so Biel-tan guardians using poisoned weapons wouldn't be unheard of.
-Case in point: my corsairs are painted up in Alaitoc colors, so when I go to something that doesnt allow forgeworld, they become Dark Eldar allies, but painted up as Alaitoc corsairs
My painting log, Alaitoc Eldar and Dark Angels:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...89#post5897489
If you want a tournament list please ignore the following.
Biel Tan to me: few if any psyker, allies only in dire need, guardians only in vehicles.
An Autarch as HQ ready to join Warp spiders with Banshee Mask, PW and Fusion Gun.
2x DA as troops.
I suggest one mobile the other on foot. The foot one has Defend, Bladestorm and the shield+PW, the mobile Exarch has BS, dual catapult and a all Shurikencannon Serpent.
Those are the basics.
A full squad of scorpions with all powers, and biting blade or sabres. Infiltrating close to objectives/targets.
7-10 Warpspiders incl. exarch PB, Withdraw and spinnaret-rifle (will be joined by Autarch)
7-10 Hawks incl. skyleap Exarch with Hawk's Talon or Sunrifle
To those 1150 to 1270 points you can then bring in the Walkers/Vypers or tanks you like.
For 2k I would go the same way but add another DA on foot (dual and BS) and Warpspiders (as above) as well as Scorpions or better Banshees (Acrobatics-Exarch with mirrorswords) if you are comfortable with them. (Scorps and Banshees make for a formidable team!)
The a full squad of SC/SL Walkers
If you have a Nightwing or a Firestorm (saving some points elsewhere i.e. going all on foot) those are fun too.
I'm looking for 1850pts, mildly competitive so that it's not completly boring for my opponent. I've come to lists quite close to yours, except the hawks I'm really not sure about. The problem I see is high armor value tanks (12+, like land raiders), since technically, only the fusion gun autarch could deal with those...
This is some background point I've been wondering about:Sure, Biel-Tan is xenophobic. That doesn't apply to Dark Eldar. The clue is in the name
- Would Biel-Tan Eldar be closer to DE than other Eldar because of their xenophobic/extreme behaviour?
- Do they have a hatred for their dark cousins because they represent the worst that happened to Eldar after the fall?
Well, I completely agree with you, but trying to go full aspect is kind of a challengeHowever, it's tempting to get a couple of jetbikes, and the only way to get warlocks (who are part of aspect shrines) is to get a seer. And there is the monofilament thing...
As a former Epic player, I remember that too! I think it would be cool to have some nightspinners or even support platforms (90pts for 3 is awfully cheap!). Maybe it could be possible to work an "anvil & hammer" list, with monofilament range support & DA in the deployment zone while scorpions & spiders would strike in the very ranks of the ennemy?
I think Biel-tan and the Dark Eldar would be closer than other Craftworlds
Biel-tan Autarch: Hey, we are gonna go cleanse a planet of humans, want to come along? We don't care what you do with the people, we just want them off this maiden worlds.
Archon: Opportunity for more slaves than a normal raid, at a lessened risk to ourselves? How could we refuse?!
Plus, from the Epic fluff, the other craftworlds were horrified at the use of viral weapons in the Nightspinner (don't quote me on that), the Dark Eldar would probably get a kick out of it.
And I think it could probably work, since we no longer have to stick anti-tank in every single slot to remain competitive.
My painting log, Alaitoc Eldar and Dark Angels:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...89#post5897489
I think Karandras is kind of obvious in his use. To you and your opponent. I view Asurmen as the clean up guy. You're absolutely right that he doesn't quite fit in with what you imagine a matching character should... like karandras. But he is actually still pretty good at shooting with the the double shuri-cats and BS 7 (re-rolling misses on 5+). And to be honest I think he took a bit of a hit because of the new rules for power weapons. He won't be able to make the best use of his Diresword because most things with multiple wounds will have a 2+ armor save. (there is a rumor I saw that the diresword ignores all saves, but it clearly stated in the Dire Avengers entry "it is a power weapon") But really it puts him back where he should be, running around with his DA shooting up troops and other annoying non-heavy assault units and cleaning them up in the assault phase. Backed up by an Exarch with shimmershield and power weapon they should do alright on clean up duty. Alternately his 2+/4+ save plus look out sir really soaks up a lot of damage from regular shooting/attacks. Let Karandras deal with termies and other deathstar units. Asurmen will win you the game by clearing objectives and killing troop choices. I'd run them out of a wave serpent with another back up unit of dire avengers following, for extra attacks and also so he can unit hop if his original one starts to disappear around him. They'll need to be in the Wave Serpents so that you can get your DA forward enough with out getting shot to pieces by heavy bolters and the like on the way in as well as drop them as far away as possible from a counter unit, like THSS termies. I might even give them star engines just to be sure.
As for the other lords, Fuegan is a nice choice but kind of hard to figure out how he fits in. His axe, for example, while AP2 makes him go last... as well MC don't get 2d6 for armor pen anymore. You could argue he gets hammer of wrath and smash as per regular MC. The HoW S4 AP- I10 attack maybe not so useful but doubling his strength for half attacks with a re-roll to pen is pretty sweet. His Axe is already AP2 though so that doesn't help. But really like you said, he doesn't bring anything new to the units main role. Maybe make non-CC units think twice about assaulting them and tying them up... so they can allow you to continue to blast armor and heavy infantry.
Maugen-ra is pretty nice but a bit random. His gun does have rending and pinning but both are effects that are hard to rely on unless you deploy them en mass. But if his gun does rend, it will be doing pretty good against most armor. And again he doesn't really do anything special for his disciples. If he gave Dark Reapers relentless for example that could be huge. Or even slow and purposeful.
Baharroth and Jain Zar again same thing, great on their own but not so essential to make their unit better. Baharroth does have hit and run but it's random and maybe not so useful. I have a hard time thinking of a situation they would need it and not be screwed either way. Baharroth and Maugen Ra at least have the chance of their unit becoming scoring tho.
And the other units Wraithlord, always a good choice for a foot based army, even better now with the inclusion of new rules on top of the old 5th ed version, but maybe not so blitzy...Dark Reapers while not exactly maneuverable, they can be dropped by a falcon in a great spot to deal damage and be a huge distraction. Plus with the new snap fire rules they can still fire their heavy weapons when setting up.
Hawks, never had any luck with them. They only do one thing well, which everyone knows about. So if they're ever a threat they are put down quickly. A few heavy bolters annihilate them. Also one of the exarch powers is now useless (intercept). Without psychic support they can't really stand on their own... and compared to other units there are better choices for the points.
Last edited by zawyvern; 31-07-2012 at 05:38.
Here are some interesting insights. Zawuvern, you made me want to give Asurmen a try!
If I sum up the casting we could have:
- Karandras
- Asurmen
- DAs x 2 (at least)
- Scorpions
- Warp Spiders seem to be a must in this kind of build too.
I wonder what to do about Dark Reapers and AT solutions more generally. I usually play an exarch with tempest launcher and crackshot, but it doesn't work well with mechanized reapers since he couldn't fire before turn 3 (not very interesting since they are sooooo expensive). What about twin Dark Reapers units with LME exarchs + fast shot?
Well, the Hawks can deal with any vehicle due to haywire grenades. Personally I see them in the role of mobile anti infantry fire more. You know, DS+falcon grenades followed by a salvo of laser fire, powered up by the Hawk's Talon or numbered up by the sunrifle. And jo-jo 100% sure with the new active reserve!
And the land raider? Either Ignore it or bring it down with the Hawks or the Autarch (FG and haywire)
At 1850 you can add another Autarch and Spiders with Exarch and still have two full SC/SL Walker squadrons
Going for 1850 since you mentioned that before I think.
230 A
215 K
177 Scorpions x10 exarch, biting blade
147 DA x10 exarch SS&PW
100 Wave serpent - TL Shurican
152 DA x10 exarch Dual Shuricats, Bladestorm
100 Wave serpent - TL Shurican
164 Warp Spiders x6 - Exarch, power blades, extra death spinner, withdraw
145 Falcon - Bright lance
60 DA x6
145 Falcon - Bright lance
90 Fire Dragons x5
120 Vyper x2 (separate units) - 2x Shuri cannons each
1845
Originally I went for missile launchers on the falcons, but thought a little bit better long range firepower was needed. Since they have the pulse laser already it kind of made sense to stick them together. I then put missile launchers on the vypers, but that was too expensive. The list is kind of light on troops but you are pretty mobile and aspect heavy. A nice themed list I think. No dark reapers tho. They were low on the list from what you were talking about so other things ate up the points. Still wonder if they might be a better choice than the vypers instead. Up to you.
The vypers do have the element of maneuvering so can get side and rear shots on vehicles if needed and pick off models at the edges. If you dropped a Falcon you could do the double DR with LME... might even want to go for crack shot so if you go after skimmers they don't get cover from jink. They could sit back with the small unit of DA. Again overall a nice themed list.
Just an opinion so take it as that.
I prefer to put brightlances and other one shot weapons on wave serpents for that twin linked effect and on falcons I usually put 2x shuriken cannons for that cheap 6s6 shots.
I thought about that too. I used to do it when I meq spammed. But I was worried the wave serpents wouldn't be in a position to get a good shot with the lance since they're main job would be to get the DA with Asurmen in a good position and protect them. Oh a side note when deploying DA, and you know you're not going to face blasts or templates, probably a good idea to disembark in between the 2 wave serpents. Use them as walls from other unit shooting. If you stick a model from the other squad right next to Asurmen at the front, forcing them to charge both units, they'll lose they're charge bonus plus be down an extra attack (if they have one) from defend. Not as easy as it sounds, but effective... best way is forming a wedge with the serpents with a small space at the head. Putting the 2 models in the space.
Plus both units will get to overwatch fire. Maybe a reason to go with defend instead of bladestorm for the 2nd big unit. Anyway, in a pinch you can use the wave serpent the same way... I think.... I've rambled enough. If I were a super hero they would call me.... THE BABBLER!
Love the idea!! I've run fairly aspect heavy through 5th (2*scorps, 2*Spiders and hawks)
Hawks are a great suicide unit to take out AV14 or any AV for that matter!
On Asurman - leave him at home, I'm not seeing any particular Biel-Tan connection and think he's one of the worst PL's. At 230 points he's AP3 in CC and adds very little to a squad of avengers. They even have to buy their own shimmershield - just not seeing the returns myself...
Fuegan on the other hand has a unique weapon (yes its an axe but it has its own rules) so still strikes at initiative, with strength 5 and ignores armour saves. On top of that he has double armour pen and some nifty powers if he needs to shoot up a tank! He gets FnP all the time I believe so increases durability massively and just generally outshine Asurman. Especially if you pop him on a quad gun the first turn - shooting fliers at BS7 re-rolling armour pen and ignoring cover four times(!) should knock something down!
M-Ra my personal favourite can lay down some ranged hurt and with HP and glances 4 S6 shots is not to be sneezed at, ignoring cover/taking an extra shot as the situation demands. As a character he can also snipe a squad leader etc. on a 6 to hit which is always useful, when he has 5 chances of getting a 6!
I do love warp spiders and scorpions though!
We are arguing. On the internet. About a fantasy. Wargame. There's absolutely no way we are not nerds, and no reason whatsoever to try to make some sort of hierarchy.
What about playing Dark Reapers with a shuricanon exarch with crackshot + Maugan-Ra in a serpent? They'll lose a turn of fire in their transport (maybe I'll get some stellar engines to be sure they'll get a nice place to shoot from) but the exarch as well as Maugan-Ra can shoot at full BS as soon as they get out, and even the Dark Reapers will hit on a 6. Maybe a solution to rear-shoot those pesky flyers (no cover save here, hehe!) and anything trying to hide, while bringing Maugan-Ra to the front line!
Ah I find he gets plenty of combat sitting back and shooting for a turn of three near an objective! A lot of armies want to close and he generally gets into combat eventually. With an assault weapon and fleet he has a surprising threat range in CC for a shooty character.
On rear armour - warp spiders will do the job better (more strength 6) against most things and don't need the serpent support. I don't think either Ra or the exarch can shoot fliers at full BS either I'm afraid - hopefully in the next 'dex
He could man a defensive platform though - fast/crack shot on the Icarus lascannon is pretty mean but Feugan does this even better if you really need it IMHO.
We are arguing. On the internet. About a fantasy. Wargame. There's absolutely no way we are not nerds, and no reason whatsoever to try to make some sort of hierarchy.
I haven't run Asurmen in 6e yet... But in 5e I had great success with him. I'd put him in DAs with a SS Exarch + Fortune and beat CC termi squads in CC. There's NOTHING like the look of an opponent's face when his lightning claw and TH+SS termis lose to DAs
In 6e Asurmen can't kill Termis at all though. I guess against non-termis he should still be okay though. But he needs Fortune to really hum with that nice 2+/4++. I guess if you can put him in the front of a DA squad he can take all the wounds and make them invincible. It takes an average of 36 wounds to put a wound on him, or four AP2 wounds to hurt him.
I'm trying to build my list - by the way: 1850pts, no allies, no fortifications... I think I'll have to drop the Phoenix Lords, although I would really like to field Karandras. But damn, you can field a whole additional scorpion squad for the price of this guy
Right now, I'm considering:
- Autarch x 2 (fusion gun, laser lance, mandiblaster, jetbike)
+ 3 x guardians jetbikes (shuriken canon) as their retinue (and to add some Biel-Tan color... I think I would do some nice modelling here)
- Dire Avengers: 3 x 9, + exarchs with double shuriken catapult and bladestorm.
- Striking Scorpions: 3 x 9, + exarchs with claw, shadowstrike, stalker.
- Warp Spiders: 2 x 4, + exarchs, double death spinners.
- Dark Reapers: 2+exarch, tempest missile launcher, crackshot.
The plan would be to infiltrate the scorpions so that they would be an immediate threat my opponent would have to deal with. During this DAs move as quickly as they can (fleet!) toward the ennemy's position (firing at whatever is at range, when the opportunity occurs). Dark Reapers will shoot from my deployment zone, maybe camping on an objective (even if they don't score most of the time). Warp Spiders will arrive on turn 2 (unless I roll a 1...), and weaken the scorpion's target before their charge/shoot at light tanks/balance my forces wherever it turns not good. The autarchs are my AT12+, and their retinue is here only to soak some damage while they'll be progressing toward their target. If there aren't decent tanks to hunt, they'll join the scorpions for the feast...
No tanks, almost 100% aspects
Last edited by Chrysalis; 02-08-2012 at 06:43.
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