Which army has the best lord and dragon combo?

[Doommasters]

Interested to see which army people think has the most versatile and/or powerful lord and Dragon/monster combo. Trying to decide which army to build a 3000 point list that will be centered around a lord on monster.

So far my local thinks a Vampire Lord on Dragon is the biggest and baddest option around, thoughts?

Obviously survivabilty is very immportant as almost a third of the army will be wrapped up in that single unit, equally however it needs to just slaughter whatever it manages to get in combat with.

[m1acca1551]

I can see why, it's a unit that hits like a freight train and can often generate enough kills to blow through smaller regiments and can easily make a horde unit dissapear, however as a VC player i get very nervous when i decide to take 1 as it becomes the focal point of every thing that goes boom or zzzap.

After that i'd say that the HE on star dragon is a beast to fight, as the HE army book allows for the lord to become almost un-killable, kitted out with the right weapon can deal with decent damage and the dragons stats are greater daemon territory means that even alone can wreck a small unit. DE can be very nasty but as with elfs T3 isnt very good.

But at the end of the day there is no unit that generate the number of high st attacks like a blender lord on zombie dragon.

[bildo]

chaos obviously, 2 breath weapons, possibly another from the lord, a 3+ ward, and then still 55pts of magic items to kill with and 30pts of gifts to kil with too

[Snake1311]

So far my local thinks a Vampire Lord on Dragon is the biggest and baddest option around, thoughts?

Obviously survivabilty is very immportant as almost a third of the army will be wrapped up in that single unit, equally however it needs to just slaughter whatever it manages to get in combat with.

You can't have a third of the army wrapped up into it, because your lord cap is 25%. So in a 3k army, the most expensive your dragon can be is 750 pts.

My vote goes out to High Elves. Unlike VC, their army doesn't implode if for some reason the dragon dies. Also:

- Their Dragons are very strong
- The lord itself is reasonaly expensive as base cost, but then he can wreck face with just a Great Weapon, as he gets +2 str and ASF which overwrites the ASL. Overall, the whole package + gear of choice fits under 750 pts comfortably.
- Dragon armour extends to the Dragon, protecting it from a) dwarf flaming cannons (so 1/3rd of the proper cannons out there), b) any unit with the flaming banner.
- HE are good at mitigating the drawback of not taking a level 4 caster - they have awesome dispell capabilities which can take place in the hero slots.
- Alternatively, you can field 1 or 2 more dragons in your hero slots for target saturation, and overall dragon-ey goodness.
- Eagles are of massive help in a dragon list, since they can protect from countercharges, slow down deatrhstars, and engage shooters & warmachines.

[Doommasters]

Interesting three different opinions who would of thought. Snake makes some intersting points about the HE makes sense they would have one of the best if not the best dragon and rider option. Still three breath weapons would be very helpful.

[m1acca1551]

I'd say that HE would be the best all round to take, woc i havent seen a list taking a chaos dragon in a long time... so cant comment. But i have also yet to see any other lord choice unit do the killy hack slash like a vc blender lord then the dragon goes.

A vc list with lord on dragon is on the one trick pony side of things, lots of necromancers are needed and your core/special and rares are lacking in numbers. I did see a dragon blender combo list with 2 vargulfs, the resulting carnage of the 3 units hitting a horde of black orcs made me want to cry.

[King Arthur]

Dark elf dragon would be fun as pendant of khaelith (drool) and in my opinion is the best value for points on a dragon-but the best fighters in the game are the most combat effective lords in the game are chaos lords decisions?. But then again a high elf would be cool, one of those three my ace would have to be dark elf on dragon for point efficency and magic item combos. Also the isn t bad either

[Snake1311]

Dark elf dragon would be fun as pendant of khaelith (drool) and in my opinion is the best value for points on a dragon-but the best fighters in the game are the most combat effective lords in the game are chaos lords decisions?. But then again a high elf would be cool, one of those three my ace would have to be dark elf on dragon for point efficency and magic item combos. Also the isn t bad either

Most of the insane Dark Elf goodies don't actually work very well with the dragon rider. For lone combat characters, you have the pendant (imba ward save vs high-S attacks) and the Cloak (half S from shooting), but neither applies to the dragon itself - meaning that cannons and high S attacks and spells will kill the dragon as standard (note: same applies to the HE - only exception is flaming attacks). The dragon itself is worse than its HE counterpart, and I'd say so is the hero - for a modest 10 pt extra, HE get an upgrade from Hatred to ASF. Granted, having a sea dragon cloak under the mundane gear is very nice as it prevents the character from getting picked off by mass arrows, but HE have some very point-effective gear in the armour slots, which combines multiple effects.

Chaos dragons are stronk, but I have a vague memory of the whole setup being very expensive. Like, maybe only just fitting into 750 pts. Which means that as soon as you want to play any slightly smaller game with your coveted centrepiece model (like the standard 2400 for example), its going to have to sit it out. Otherwise, yes, this is probably the killiest setup you can drop down; but I've literally never seen it used.

[Tae]

Wood Elf dragon with the Stone of the Crystal Mere - 3+ ward save. Suddenly not so squishy to cannon balls!

[Antipathy]

The following armies have Lords on Dragons as an option;

The Empire
- Emperor Karl Franz, on the Imperial Dragon
- Magisterix Elspeth von Draken

Vampire Counts
- Vampire Lord, on Zombie Dragon

Dark Elves
- Malekith, on Black Dragon
- Dreadlord, on Black Dragon
- Supreme Sorceress, on Black Dragon

High Elves
- Prince, on Star, Moon, or Sun Dragon
- Archmage, on Moon, or Sun Dragon

Warriors of Chaos
- Galrauch (Technically, not a Lord on Dragon, but even so)
- Chaos Lord, on Chaos Dragon
- Sorceror Lord, on Chaos Dragon

Wood Elves
- The Sisters of Twilight, on Ceithin-Har
- Highborn, on Forest Dragon

So, we have 4 (or 5, depending on your opinion of Galrauch) Special Characters on Dragons. The most important thing to remember that they have an 18" Inspiring Presence, so high Leadership Models do benefit the most from being mounted on it.

Karl Franz has fairly typical human fighter hero stats - 4 S4 WS6 Attacks, striking at I6, with a weapon that autowounds, and ignores armour - a good option for a low strength character. However his option for Ghal Maraz takes both of those, and then gives him the Multiple Wounds (D3) special rule, making him an decent monster/character hunter. His Dragon being I3 is also quicker than both Star Dragons and Zombie Dragons which are popular choices. However, his resilience is not exactly special. 3 Wounds, and only a 3+ Armour Save (admittedly, a 4+ Ward Save helps, as does the Magic Resistance against common sniper spells like Curse of Laniph, Golden Hounds) means he can quickly succumb to massed attacks. His main benefit comes from a 48" Bubble of Ld10, however as he can get that from Deathclaw, and both are equally vulnerable to things like Cannonballs etc, you might as well take the cheaper option and keep him hidden until you silence some of the enemy war machines, or can lock him in a combat that he will be able to win in your opponents CC Phase (rather than your own). However, the Dragon does add the benefits of extra WS, Toughness, Wounds, and Attacks, with a 3+ Armour Save, and a S4 Breath Weapon. Seems like a lot, but only if you actually get to use it. At 640-670 points, it's a fair investment that gimps your Magic Defence heavily - a Life L4 Caster cannot help keep him alive with Lifebloom for example, and an Altar is not available.

Elspeth is a funny one, depending on if your opponent will "allow" Warhammer Forge models. However, if they do, you now get a Magic Caster, very, very useful, using one of the strongest lores in the game. Combined with an army that has a lot of Cannons, a Lore of Death Loremaster (with 3 Sniper Spells) and Dragon Breath Weapon that works like a Cannonball, you can quickly pick out enemy threats. With Ld10 and an 18" Range Inspiring Presence, you have a fairly good general as well. In CC, the most important thing to remember is that the Dragon is I5. Although "only" S5, remember that when you are facing a Purple Sun/Pit of Shades. Plus, it has a 2+ Scaly Skin Save. Combine her Darkwalker rules with T4, and she's a T4 with a -1 to wound rolls - throw her at a block of skaven slaves, and they're wounding on a 6. With the Pale Scythe as well, you have a 5+ to Dispels. In Close Combat, she's not exactly brilliant, but with 2 Killing Blow attacks and an I5 Dragon, an opponent throwing some Heavy Cavalry to stall her is a risky business. Her best attribute though, is "Death's Timekeeper", which heals 1 wound each turn, or allows a reroll for her or the dragon. All in all, a very, very good character. At 590 points as well, cheap compared to the Emperor, allowing 160points worth of Lords as well to back up - possibly an Arch Lector with a Stubborn Hat.

Malekith - 4 S5 Attacks a turn, at a Weapon Skill and Initiative level out the wazoo, he's fairly offensive, but lacks a bit of ability to just wail on anything. However, he's a character killer, no doubt (but try and keep him away from Daemons and Treeman Ancients). Characters these days either have a super magic weapon, or just rely on a great weapon to deal damage. As a magic weapon is typically around 40 points, you have a decent chance of removing it (thanks to I8 and Destroyer), before your opponent gets a chance to attack. With a 2+ Ward Save against non magical attacks, T4, and a 3+ Armour Save, AS WELL as immunity to Multiple Wounds/Killing Blow etc he can last a good while. His spellshield is fairly decent as well, but sadly his points value prohibits you from taking a Supreme Sorceress for the +4 to dispel. However, combined with a Feedback Scroll that can effectively remove a Teclis/Slann from the game. His Dragon does help when he comes to munch on units, but it's best to try and save him for taking on low toughness, heavily armoured units - Elven Elites of all denominations, Greatswords, or Soublighted/Withered Dwarfs/Chaos Warriors. He seems perfect. One problem though. 250-300 points over costed. Bear in mind though that he can be an effective Caster - L4 with access to Black Horror, Soul Stealer to heal him (for 6 wounds in total), and Word of Pain as well.

Naestra and Arahan - some of my favourites. Perhaps the most resilient - despite T3, a 6+ Armour Save, and no Ward Save, thanks to their "Sister-Twins" rule, they are effectively a 4 wound unit, which instantly heals itself back to full wounds at the end of each phase. Thanks to that, combine the Dragon's charge with careful positioning, and you can corner charge so that only one enemy is able to attack back. As most enemies tend to lack the ability to cause 4 Wounds in a single phase, then you are rocking. However, they have huge limitations. Firstly, the Dragon is fairly subpar - lacking a lore capable of nerfing enemies toughness, the Breath Weapon is limited in its application. Like the Black Dragon, save it for elven elites. As Wood Elves tend to struggle with Heavy Cavalry, flank charging something like Dragon Princes/Empire (any 2+ or better T3 cavalry), they can cause a fair bit of damage between them - 6 S4 Sister's Attacks, 5 S6 Dragon Attacks, and 2D6 S2 -3 to save Combat Breath Weapon will hurt them badly. It is worth throwing them as well at Reiksguard - the Stubborn will allow you to keep out of shooting potential for a long time. Back to it's limitations, however, at 595 points, you don't have enough for another Lord, which precludes use of Lore of Life and Beasts, as well as a Ld10 Lord (technically, a Highborn with 10 pts of equipment is allowed, but seriously?). In fact, as they are only hero stats, you need a noble to have decent leadership, and likely a second noble with a Standard of Discipline to get the Ld10 aura. However, that then also has the knock on effect of removing the use of Eternal Guard blocks. An army based around moving (Great Eagles, Glade Riders and Warhawk Riders) is quite strong, but struggles heavily against the more powerful armies (They lack easy access to cheap redirectors - if Great Eagles were special and 1-2 per choice and were each a seperate entity, maybe). Probably not what you're looking for. However, their shooting is quite nasty - stops enemies moving for more battlefield control, and a S3 Stone Thrower is fairly hot against horde armies.

Now, onto Galrauch - 616 points, not exactly sure how they came to that price. He has a small ward save (6+), but with Loremaster (Tzeentch), he's rocking out hardcore with one of the most effective lores in the game. Treason of Tzeentch, Pandaemonium, and Infernal Gateway allows control of the battlefield - combine Pandaemonium with a Death Sorcerer (Doom and Darkness+Baleful Transmogrification) and Puppet, and you've got the magic sorted. Now, he obviously loses out on the attacks of something riding on his back, but with 3 Breath Weapons, and 6 I6 Attacks at S6 he's fairly decent anyway. His Breath Attack is one of the most effective character killers in the game. Throw him into an enemy character unit, and challenge. Either slaughter the champion and potentially eliminate the unit (+7 for Charge, wounds caused, and max overkill, versus +4 for ranks and banner), or just try and challenge their most threatening character, and then use Breath of Change. 2D6 Toughness Tests must be passed or the model dies.

Looking at your other options;

- Vampire Lord, on Zombie Dragon
- Dreadlord on Black Dragon
- Supreme Sorceress on Black Dragon
- Prince on Star/Moon/Sun Dragon
- Archmage on Moon/Sun Dragon
- Chaos Lord on Chaos Dragon
- Sorcerer Lord on Chaos Dragon
- Highborn on Forest Dragon

Myself, personally, when you're spending that many points on a model, you need to combine the benefits of both a Caster, and a Fighter. Otherwise, you're going to be spending the game avoiding CC, and you might as well just get a cheaper Flying Mount - a Dark Pegasus, or Eagle, etc.

My personal army is Vampire Counts and Wood Elves. So;

Vampire Counts. As he's your general, and riding a Dragon, coming in at a basic cost of 465, at 3K points, you have 285 points left to spend. You can go for a Master Necromancer if you desire. Obviously, this gives you a second character to back up General when he pops it - but it's 200 points for a L4 Naked Master Necromancer, leaving you only 85 to tool up the Vampire. So for that matter, might as well plump for the 3 Additional Magic Levels - he comes to 560 points here. Leaves you 190 of expenditure.

Now, here I find you must make a choice - the Warhammer Fantasy version of "Will it Blend" as you slam it into an enemy unit, with a Magic Weapon and Red Fury - Sword of Bloodshed, perhaps, for a potential 16 S5 Attacks. You can throw in other CC Boosting potential - Quickblood, and Dreadknight bring your total to 150 - leaving you 40 points to otherwise "upgrade" your character. Heavy Armour and Shield is 9 points, so 31 left, (3+ Armour Save). You might want to get a Ward Save to keep him alive against GW Troops - in which case the Talisman of Endurance gives you a 3+/5++, with the ability to heal yourself. This build gives you a WS9, 8 S5 Attacks, hitting at I7, with the ability to generate additional attacks, a 3+/5++ with the chance to heal yourself every time you cast a Lore of Vampire's Spell - Curse of Years, the two Augments and the Invocation of Nehek are all able to repair him or the Dragon.

However, my personal favourite build (although I much prefer this one over the previous one in a unit of Black Knights instead) is the one which just keeps staying alive (although it works better in conjunction with support from other casters and a Steamroller block of knights). There are three important tools for this - Magic Armour, Talisman, and Curse of the Revenant. The Armour is the Helm of Torment, Talisman is obviously Preservation, and Curse of the Revenant gives you 4 Wounds. This comes to a grand total of 150 points, with a further 40 left to spend. With Shield, Heavy Armour you have 31 left to spend - 5 of which may be a magic item, the rest is up to you. 5pt Magic Items are limited to Ironcurse Icons, Potions of Foolhardiness/Speed, the Tormentor Sword, or Warrior Bane. None are particularly useful, so might as well save them for a Vampire Power - Between Beguile and Master Strike, it's more than capable at fending off enemies and actually staying alive, and they are my personal choices, but you might want to use Quickblood to give it some more damage output. (I personally feel 5 S5 Attacks, 6 S6 Attacks, Thunderstomp and Breath Weapon is more than enough).

In short, here's how he stays alive.

Charges - Fear test, possibly becomes WS1.
Challenge enemy - either accepts, or force a dangerous character away from the fight.
Beguile Challenger/another dangerous model - possibly successful hits must be rerolled from that character.
Vampire Attacks - remove other dangerous characters/boosted attack models like Champions
Enemy attacks - as above, including fear+beguile, if hits, roll to wound, forced reroll successful to wound, 2+ Armour Save, and a 4+ Ward Save to save, has 4 wounds.
Dragon Attacks - Thunderstomp/Breath Weapon situational.

Magic turn - use Vampire to attempt to heal self by attempting to augment self/curse of years enemy unit to heal self/dragon.

Wood Elves - have a big boost in the fact that they can use the Stone of the Crystal Mere for a 3+ on both Rider and Dragon. Although T3, they can get a fairly decent save - Magic Heavy Armour+Shield/Enchanted Shield+Light Armour/Magical Helm+Light Armour+Shield gives a 3+/3++. Or, even the Armour of Silvered Steel, but that's quite expensive. The Dawnspear helps keep him alive as well by causing enemies to miss.

Try this on for size; Dawnspear, Enchanted Shield, Stone of the Crystal Mere, Potion of Strength, Light Armour, Forest Dragon = 558 points.

You can also exchange the Enchanted Shield and Potion of Strength for the Helm of the Hunt and The Other Trickster's Shard - this gives you (and the Dragon) a 3+/3++, when you charge, if you cause a wound, enemies suffer -1 to hit (typically hitting on a 5+, at higher than 3K points, if you can afford a Beastweaver, and get the Curse of Anraheir for it, then it's hitting on a 6). However, it's nothing particularly special, but I believe a few Scandinavian players had success with a similar build.

[NitrosOkay]

I've been a big fan of the Nightshroud on Vampire Lords on a Zombie Dragon. Lets your dragon go first in challenges and helps your dragon survive great weapons. Gives you a 2+ armour save and leaves room for a sword of anti-heroes, other trickster's shard and 6+ ward. Won a few games with that disgusting Lord working over Chaos Lords before they can strike.

[Lord Inquisitor]

See what you've unleashed Doommasters? Antipathy wins via putting way more thought into this than, ironically, anyone else could be bothered to.

[Antipathy]

Tbh, I'd had a lot of that cooking already; been considering a Dragon-headed army after reading about the Dragon Army of Caledor on Ulthuan.net. (Using the theory that because the meta has shifted away from using Dragons, nobody bothers to counter them, so they become strong once again).

[NitrosOkay]

(I personally feel 5 S5 Attacks, 6 S6 Attacks, Thunderstomp and Breath Weapon is more than enough).

I've played about 5 games with the Zombie Dragon and in my experience it's not enough. When you're fighting Chaos Lords with a 1+/3++ or a Saurus Oldblood that your Lord hits on 5's and your Dragon hits on 6's there's a good chance you'll bounce off. Thunderstomp isn't reliable when mounted characters are running around.

You can't afford to bounce off with no static res.

I usually play at 3,000 points so I often see these kinds of lord-level combat characters in addition to a level 4 in their army.

[Snake1311]

I usually play at 3,000 points so I often see these kinds of lord-level combat characters in addition to a level 4 in their army.

In all fairness, when I read 3000 points I'm actually thinking 2999. Dragons are even more disadvantaged at 3k upwards than usual, since anyone in their right mind (and access to) will field 4+ cannons (or whatever does that job for them, e.g. rocklobbas)

There is a sweet spot for dragon-ey goodness at between 2500 to 2999 pts, i.e. where you have enough allowance to field one, but the opponent doesn't have the chance to double up on all the tools that rape it in the face. It also means that you generally can't combine them with a lord level caster (unless you skimp out on gear for both). This is why I tend to dismiss VC - they kind of need their spells to function. Crumble is also bad news for a dragon character, since champion for chump challenges + static means you crumble from random **********, and god forbid you get countercharged the turn after (with a new champ to bash you in the face). Other armies can (and should) take the crown of command.

Wood Elves are actually a decent idea, due to some of their items; plus they can take 2 treemen as well which may or may not absord a cannonball or two (and they have eagles as well!).

[Why]

Snake nailed it about VC dragons.

Wood elf dragons are not the best. Stone of crystal mere can help keep them safe for a few turns but it sucks when you fail it when your T3 lord takes a wound from some archers. I once heard something about a guy using a dragon, 2 treemen and a bunch of treekin in a tournament and doing very well with it. No one ever thinks wood elves can be a steamroller army.

[Antipathy]

I've played about 5 games with the Zombie Dragon and in my experience it's not enough. When you're fighting Chaos Lords with a 1+/3++ or a Saurus Oldblood that your Lord hits on 5's and your Dragon hits on 6's there's a good chance you'll bounce off. Thunderstomp isn't reliable when mounted characters are running around.

You can't afford to bounce off with no static res.

I usually play at 3,000 points so I often see these kinds of lord-level combat characters in addition to a level 4 in their army.

In return though, what can your opponent do to you? Assuming chaos lord, 44% chance to hit, 25% chance to wound, 50% chance to armour save, 50% chance to ward save, = 3% chance to cause a single wound, unless it somehow has 132 attacks hidden away somewhere to 'guarantee' killing the vampire in a single turn, it is going nowhere, at least until you get some wights into the flank. Throw in the reroll to wound/hit spells, curse of years and chaos lord/knight is up against it.

[NitrosOkay]

In return though, what can your opponent do to you? Assuming chaos lord, 44% chance to hit, 25% chance to wound, 50% chance to armour save, 50% chance to ward save, = 3% chance to cause a single wound, unless it somehow has 132 attacks hidden away somewhere to 'guarantee' killing the vampire in a single turn, it is going nowhere, at least until you get some wights into the flank. Throw in the reroll to wound/hit spells, curse of years and chaos lord/knight is up against it.

I usually see either the ASF/Ogre Blade Chaos Lord who would actually get re-rolls to hit against a Vampire with no ASF and hit on 4's if you don't have dread knight. Or the ASF/Killing Blow Chaos Lord.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything here.

By Helm of Torment do you mean Trickster's Helm? Re-roll successful to wound?. That doesn't sound terribly fun when Assassins and Lords re-roll successful wounds into killing blows, especially with other trickster's shard around. I've always found the best defence against killing blow is not a ward save but just to kill whatever has killing blow before it strikes.

The other guy has six attacks, Leadership 7 vs beguile with a re-roll with the BSB is probably a pass. 4.5 hits. 3.13 wounds with strength 7. No armour save. 2.34 unsaved wounds after ward with other trickster's shard around, 1.565 otherwise. Or he could just beat on your dragon for combat resolution and on average get 3 wounds. You probably have the charge for 1 static resolution, he'll have 3 ranks and a banner unless he's randomly out in the middle of nowhere. Your attacks probably bounce off him or cause one wound on his ridiculous saves. Now your dragon is dead.

The thing is though I'm sure what you build works for you, since we all work around what we play against locally. It just doesn't work well for me with what I play against regularly (lots of goddamn assassins and ridiculous combat lords for example).

[Larkyn]

(Lots of awesome text.)

The Warseer "Like" button was pressed. A few times.

I personally want to try Franz out on the Dragon. Black Dragon kit, here I come!

[Doommasters]

See what you've unleashed Doommasters? Antipathy wins via putting way more thought into this than, ironically, anyone else could be bothered to.

haha yea and it was a great read also

Actually thinking about building a dragon themed HE army after reading the posts so far. As much as I really like the idea of a Vampire lord on dragon it just does not fot well with the army, the chaos lord on dragon would be amazing but it costs a bomb and it is not as fluffy as HE who have dragons running through their whole book.

Basic idea will be to build an army around;

- Lord on Star Dragon
- Dragon Mage on Sun Dragon
- One or Two units of Dragon Princes

Obviously the list will be pretty fluffy as the Dragon Mage seems fairly weak, but you do get a Dragon and Caster....would have been nie if the Caster had a decent save.