Caught the Epic 40K bug... couple of questions.

[Zenithfleet]

G'day all,

After many a year of looking over my shoulder with mild interest at Epic in its various incarnations, I finally caved in and decided to try it out. From what I've read, NetEpic and Epic: Armageddon are the two popular rulesets, while Epic 40,000 (which came out just as I got into the hobby) is frequently reviled and buried in nightsoil from a great height.

I have therefore naturally decided to play... Epic 40,000!

Reasons: a) it's a complete ruleset and saves me scratching my head over the various E:A lists, b) it lets me take pretty much whatever the heck I want so I can pick up random eBay buckets of models without worrying about illegal formations, c) E:A is free anyway so I can always 'upgrade' later on if I want, and d) I just managed to score a nearly complete E40K box set thanks to the wonder of the internet. It also came with a bunch of Guard models and a teeny handful of Eldar.

Anyway, I've got a few questions - mainly because I'm having trouble finding a comprehensive guide to the model range.

1. I've got four Eldar War Walkers that each have a little hole in the back (where the legs join the torso) for some missing part or other. Anyone know what's supposed to go here? They look fine without anything there, so I'm not too fussed...

2. I also have two ridged wing-shaped things that I think might be some kind of webway gate terrain. They're about the size of the roller on an Ork battlewagon. Anyone know what they're for?

3. On the subject of terrain, there's also a square bunker/comms tower of some sort (it has a vertical radar-ish dish in the middle), which I think is meant to be used as an objective... and two mysterious pieces that look a bit like sandbag fortifications, except instead of bags they're stacked cylinders around a slightly raised cleared patch of ground. (Hard to explain - sorry, wish I had my camera with me!)

4. But wait, there's more! A black 'n' white booklet called 'Eldar Battle Host'. I think this is from one of those army deals they did back in the day, but I'm not sure. (Clearly somebody else 'borrowed' the actual models, though. I've got exactly one Guardian stand plus the walkers and two flyers...!)

5. Most of my IG figs are wearing coats (Valhallans?) but I have a few stands that look like Catachans. I didn't spot these when I browsed through the rulebooks. Are they meant to be just Guard, or some kind of special unit? (bearing in mind we're talking Epic 40K's simplified troop types here.)

6. I've got 11 Fate cards - 7x Psychic Scream/Counterattack and 4 others. I know there should be 12, but I'm not sure what the missing one should be. Another PS/C card?

7. Any advice on removing glued models from their strip bases? Some of the Guard stands are in a bad way - glued on sideways or backwards (!) and with warped bases. I'd quite like to put the Orks and Guard on round bases anyway. I thought of bathing the bases in Simple Green, which I use to strip paint off plastic 40K models, because it tends to make glue soften and multi-part figs fall apart after a while! If anyone has better advice, though, I'd love to hear it...

8. And finally--just browsing through my old WDs--why oh why were the Epic 40K Eldar Titans so hideous? They look like they've stumbled through a wisteria lattice factory!

[shelfunit.]

You could also check out NetEpic - basically 2nd ed Spacemarine with slight adjustments. Taccomms is the forum for all things 6mm. Either way, welcome to the world of micro scale wargaming!

[AndrewGPaul]

The Catachan types are simply Guardsmen. For some reason, Epic 40,000 replaced the original Guardsmen models (who look sort of Cadian) with Valhallans and Catachans. A bizarre mix, but there you go. Having said that, you could use them to represent something else if you like.

As for re-basing, it might be easier to simply cut away the base with clippers rather than trying to remove the miniatures from them.

The War Walkers had a rear fin, I think - assuming it's the Epic 40,000 ones. The other bits you mention might be those wings.

[Spectrar Ghost]

Try E:A, you don't have to worry about the profusion of lists unless you want to - the rule book lists are fine. That said, taking a look through the NetEA Army Compendium might change your mind. There are some excellent lists in there.

As for the wing parts, are you talking about these?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...in_445x319.jpg

[Zenithfleet]

The War Walkers had a rear fin, I think - assuming it's the Epic 40,000 ones. The other bits you mention might be those wings.

Aha! Yep, that's what they're for. I just found a photo in an old White Dwarf. No idea why they added those - they look pretty daft. I'll probably use them for terrain instead...

[MarkNorfolk]

I'm actually getting back into E:40K myself. Mostly because a there are a few gamers playing it at the club where I've just moved too but I don't have the ruvulsion for it that some others do. I've just dug out my old Fate Cards and I also have 11. They've been in a zip-lok bag for years so maybe there (i)were(/i) 11 - I do have the same ones as you. Maybe the Imperial Tarot had 12 cards. The booklet is indeed for the E:40,000 Eldar Battleforce of the time.

Cheers
Mark

[Zenithfleet]

I'm actually getting back into E:40K myself. Mostly because a there are a few gamers playing it at the club where I've just moved too but I don't have the ruvulsion for it that some others do. I've just dug out my old Fate Cards and I also have 11. They've been in a zip-lok bag for years so maybe there (i)were(/i) 11 - I do have the same ones as you. Maybe the Imperial Tarot had 12 cards. The booklet is indeed for the E:40,000 Eldar Battleforce of the time.

Cheers
Mark

Heya,

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure about the Fate Cards - the rulebook claims there are 12 (in the box contents list a couple of pages in). What power levels are your psychic blast cards? I have:
2 x Power level 1
3 x Power level 2
2 x Power level 3

I've also somehow ended up with two complete sets of the 'alien' fate cards from White Dwarf, but not the Imperial Tarot (they were missing from the WD back issue I snagged from eBay ) Oh well. I'll try to hunt down the old Firepower mags as well - I've heard there was some important errata in there, like the points increase for Anti-Tank.

Have just spent a mostly pleasant evening putting together Demolishers and Hellhounds while trying to figure out how the heck you're supposed to fit the dozer blades on. Also discovered that the pre-assembled Basilisks apparently had their tracks glued on backwards at the manufactorum. Never mind - if the Orks charge 'em, they'll be able to beat a hasty retreat.

It's a bit depressing reading the old White Dwarfs from the Epic 40,000 release. The editorials gradually get more desperate over the ensuing months...

EDIT: Just ran across something odd in the Epic 40K rules. How many stands of Terminators can ride in a Land Raider? And is there anything stopping them from riding in a Rhino instead? Rhinos have a transport capacity of 2, as do Land Raiders. That suggests that any two stands of infantry can ride in them. But that contradicts standard 40K fluff--not to mention the apparent intent of the army lists, in which you can't buy Rhinos as upgrades for Terminator squads, only LRs, and one stand = one squad, i.e. 5 men). However, there doesn't seem to be anything preventing a couple of Termie stands from ditching their LR and catching the nearest Rhinobus...

[MarkNorfolk]

The Firepowers are worth checking out: Army lists for Knights and Squats. Somew points revisions (as you say for anti-tank), Flak gets a buff and a revised crit chart for Imperial super heavy tanks. Fate card-wise my Psychic Blast cards match yours.

As for Terminators and transport capacity there was no rule for 'bulky' troops in E:40K so as far as the rules go you could put 2 stands in Land Raider. You'll just have to pretend they're Spartans or Crusaders or something.

Re White Dwarf. I was working for GW at the time and was dissapointed it didn't take off. I think they dropped the ball in marketing it and the main box should have had more emphisis on the larger pieces in the 40K armoury. Pushing it as a tank game would have given it more appeal I think.

Cheers
Mark

[zoggin-eck]

Man, Epic 40,000 is my favourite version (and favourite game) by far! I'd be very happy indeed if just a thread on it survived here for a while Stick with it if you enjoy it. Just be prepared for people to obsessively try to convince you to play a different edition, regardless of whether you ask for it or not

The bunker is certainly one of the objective models they came out with.

The fins, as you've seen, are for the walkers (which oddly are the same points value as dreadnoughts, with the same firepower but without the assault!) and the titans of the time are indeed ugly. Amazingly, you can still get the Phantom titan from GW.

I could never bring myself to put terminators in rhinos, though

One thing, people always mention to use the anti-tank rules updated in the magazine. Never used them, myself, so hopefully someone can explain?

[Westside]

Epic 40k 3rd is my favorite edition of Epic (and yes it is my favorite game also). A big plus, like you stated, all the armies are available and the rules are finalized (not to mention less of a focus on d6 randomizing).

The anti tank 'change' introduced in Firepower I just basically upped their cost by 5 pts. a shot and stopped model sniping. Instead you could pick whether your shooting at infantry or vehicle(s) and have to take causalties off the closest models of the target detachment just like anyother hits on a detachment. (not a necessary change IMO, suppose it might help the Orks if all you have is the original box set models).

[susu.exp]

Re White Dwarf. I was working for GW at the time and was dissapointed it didn't take off. I think they dropped the ball in marketing it and the main box should have had more emphisis on the larger pieces in the 40K armoury. Pushing it as a tank game would have given it more appeal I think.

I´ve stated my view on this a couple of times, but I think the main thing that brought E:40k down was the cognitive dissonance arising from far more detailed models combined with an equally far more abstract rules system. SM/TL players had seen recent updates including the Chimaera variants (Chimerax, Chimedon, Chimero), the Ordinati, Nurgle and Slaaneshi Daemon Engines and Eldar Revenants + Veteran Infantry rules. When you had Predators with various visible sponson options shown as previews and this type of detail marked the E:40k range in general you built up an expectation of rules that would also introduce more detail. Of course the rules did the precise opposite. That´s not to say the fundamental engine is faulty - it works brilliantly in BFG. And E:40k isn´t a bad game either. But it faced expectations it didn´t meet at the time.

[Zenithfleet]

Glad to see 3rd ed Epic still gets some love.

I tried the Simple Green glue-softening trick but no luck. Still, I should be able to clip the infantry off their damaged stands - the feet will get a bit cut up but it'll hopefully be hidden when I base them with sand.

Totalled up all the points of models and found that I have about 1000pts of Space Marines, 1000pts of Guard and 1000pts of Orks, including flyers for all three. Picking detachments took quite a while, but I was able to use pretty much everything in the box and divide it up into 150-250pt blocs that we can reuse for the next few games. The only absentees are the Ork Battlewagons - the Epic 40K box only included a single, lonely specimen. I've kustomised a few more from old Micro Machines military toys (!) but most of the boyz will be footin' it for a while.

Played two games so far. Started off with Gogard's Last Stand. No special weapons, just basic tanks and infantry. I took 500pts of Orks, while he had 500pts of IG and Marines. (I kept the bulk of his forces IG because I wanted most of our troops to have as few special rules as possible while we're learning.) The Catachan models proxied as Ratlings, which is an idea I might continue since I've never much liked hobbits in space. We just mucked about with different orders, getting into assaults just to see what would happen, etc. I managed to track down a summary doc on the net, listing what appear to be the important Firepower errata and mailing list rulings, so we used a few of those: +5pts per anti-tank shot, no snap-fire, etc.

The first game ended in a rout for the Orks. Gogard's Flash Gitz attempted a ded shooty frontal assault followed up by a bit of ****-kickin', but were hurled back time and again by the Guard dug in at the crossroad ruins. Wazzmek's Speedy Gitz tried a kunnin' flanking manoeuvre that ended in a solid wall of bolter fire (Rapid Fire, ouch), leaving the surviving Nobz broken, blast-markered up the wazoo and huddled among the wreckage of their battlewagons for the rest of the game, presumably squabbling over who got to be Wazzmek's replacement. Eventually Gogard gave up and slunk away to glare moodily at rocks and kick things. 'E ain't retreatin', just callin' a temporary halt ta assess da strateejic options, see...

For the second game we did a war engine fight, using two Stompas as Gargants - we stood them on barrage templates to represent their true size. The IG had a tank detachment, an artillery detachment and a pair of superheavies.

I was pleased (though slightly alarmed) to see that the superheavies behaved exactly as the fluff indicates - the ickle citruswolf tanks and Baneblade pounded away at the first Gargant to bring down its power fields and plaster it with blast markers, whereupon the Shadowsword blew a hole straight through it and ignited fires on four decks. I think I need to go dig out some of my 2nd ed 40K counters to mark war engine damage... let's see, 'On Fire', 'Slow Speed', a red die to show the number of fires... sigh...

Again the Orks lost (I'm used to this sort of thing ). Still, they made a better showing of themselves this time, wiping out the tank detachment and disposing of the Baneblade problem by the straightforward method of walloping it with a very large chainsaw.

That was the first time I've played as Orks since the Armageddon scenarios in the 2nd ed 40K boxset when I was thirteen. Good times.

I´ve stated my view on this a couple of times, but I think the main thing that brought E:40k down was the cognitive dissonance arising from far more detailed models combined with an equally far more abstract rules system. SM/TL players had seen recent updates including the Chimaera variants (Chimerax, Chimedon, Chimero), the Ordinati, Nurgle and Slaaneshi Daemon Engines and Eldar Revenants + Veteran Infantry rules. When you had Predators with various visible sponson options shown as previews and this type of detail marked the E:40k range in general you built up an expectation of rules that would also introduce more detail. Of course the rules did the precise opposite. That´s not to say the fundamental engine is faulty - it works brilliantly in BFG. And E:40k isn´t a bad game either. But it faced expectations it didn´t meet at the time.

That sounds plausible, although they did make it clear in WD 207's preview that they'd completely revamped things in a 'simpler is better' manner. I also wonder why the same thing didn't happen to 40K during the 2nd/3rd ed switch. I know it upset plenty of people, but the simplification certainly didn't kill off THAT game.

Possibly they spun it a bit better. The Epic 40K release seems to have been written up in White Dwarf to appeal to new players - there's barely a mention of 'old Titanicus' except for the 207 preview. The release issue (208) talks about the game as if it's just materialised out of thin air and nobody's ever thought of playing 6mm games before. Not that it's unusual for GW to take that line, of course But if I'd been an old-Epic player at the time, I'd probably have felt sidelined and ignored. By contrast, the 3rd ed 40K changeover assumed you already knew and played 40K, so it concentrated on explaining why the changes had been made.

Also, didn't the Epic 40K models jump in price compared to old Epic?

[zoggin-eck]

Thanks for the game reports there mate. Really want to get back into it myself!

This is a game that really does benefit from being played with large armies, as I never found it slowed down as bad as other games can. Huge armies with multiple titans and super heavies is how they really should have shown it in White Dwarf, not the pathetic photos of two stands of models and a tank or two. Decent movement blocking and line of sight blocking terrain helped, too.

Any chance you could shoot me a PM for the rules summary you found?

Also, didn't the Epic 40K models jump in price compared to old Epic?

That they did. Still not as scary as they eventually became, though.

The infantry sets were the worst. Any warning of this (and warning that my mates and I would get into Epic 3rd ed.) and I would have bought up as many as I could! (I did get two mega gargants and an imperator, though )

The tanks and fliers weren't so bad compared to previous blisters. The support weapons and attack bike/landspeeder size models were OK deals to be honest (usually five to a blister), but were still annoying in that they mostly used to come on the infantry sprues.

[susu.exp]

Also, didn't the Epic 40K models jump in price compared to old Epic?

Yes, though I´ve got a particular background where the impact of the price change was exaggerated, so I´m not sure how it impacted UK gamers. For things GW did not release in Germany we got standard conversion rates to pounds when mail ordering. That was the situation prior to E:40k. And when the game was released we could get it in German stores with the usual mark up. While the pound prices roughly doubled for infantry if memory serves, ours trippled or quadrupled.

What helped the 2nd/3rd change in 40k was that the models didn´t get all this additional detail - and the Codices would in fact add ridiculous levels of that: Really, a crux terminatoris has rules now? An iron halo? While the core mechanics were streamlined, the Codices and Chapter approved did really micromanage things.

[Zenithfleet]

This is a game that really does benefit from being played with large armies, as I never found it slowed down as bad as other games can. Huge armies with multiple titans and super heavies is how they really should have shown it in White Dwarf, not the pathetic photos of two stands of models and a tank or two. Decent movement blocking and line of sight blocking terrain helped, too.

Yeah, I did notice while browsing those old WDs that most of the pics seem to be close-ups. Presumably they wanted to emphasise the detail on the models and forgot to emphasise the potential size of the game...

Any chance you could shoot me a PM for the rules summary you found?

I found the summary here: http://www.oocities.org/markconz/epic.html
Scroll down to 'Epic 40K rules section'.

It's not a scan of copyrighted materials or anything, just a Word doc listing a particular gaming group's house rules, but it summarises a lot of the Firepower rulings like the anti-tank increase and the revised superheavy damage table.

I broke my two-year boycott of buying from GW to grab some Eldar and Chaos infantry (everything else looks far too pricey). Some of our IG will probably end up defecting to a cultist detachment, the treacherous scum. Meanwhile, I'm scrutinising eBay and trying to figure out how to get hold of Tyranid infantry without selling more than one kidney...

[shelfunit.]

Also, didn't the Epic 40K models jump in price compared to old Epic?

That they did. Still not as scary as they eventually became, though.

The infantry sets were the worst. Any warning of this (and warning that my mates and I would get into Epic 3rd ed.) and I would have bought up as many as I could! (I did get two mega gargants and an imperator, though )

The tanks and fliers weren't so bad compared to previous blisters. The support weapons and attack bike/landspeeder size models were OK deals to be honest (usually five to a blister), but were still annoying in that they mostly used to come on the infantry sprues.

The rise was as shocking as (at the time) it was unexpected. Originally you could get plastic sets for something like £8.99 - 10 sprues, then it went to 5 sprues for around £6.99. When Epic 40K reared its head you got maybe 2 sprues (at most) for £5.99 (at least). For me that was the real kicker - I never even bothered looking at the rules as the price to play the thing doubled overnight.

[zoggin-eck]

Thanks for the tip, Zenithfleet.

Yeah, I did notice while browsing those old WDs that most of the pics seem to be close-ups. Presumably they wanted to emphasise the detail on the models and forgot to emphasise the potential size of the game...

What made it more annoying, was the photos of the designers and studio guys playing in the Battles Book. The armies used were fun looking mixes of old and new models, played on big tables with large armies and titans!

The rise was as shocking as (at the time) it was unexpected. Originally you could get plastic sets for something like £8.99 - 10 sprues, then it went to 5 sprues for around £6.99. When Epic 40K reared its head you got maybe 2 sprues (at most) for £5.99 (at least). For me that was the real kicker - I never even bothered looking at the rules as the price to play the thing doubled overnight.

Oh, don't get me wrong, the prices at the time were insane! What I'm saying, is that years later (today!) the tanks sets (Chimeras, for example. So much for what are basic transports in the game) and those same infantry sets are so much worse now

Luckily for my group, most of us were happy sticking to Orks and Marines, which we had plenty of great models for from the boxed game. Starting, say, Tyranids (as one of us did) with only new kits available was much harder, which led to using lots of expensive points-wise models being used, rather than hordes of termagants etc.

People today are a little spoiled. There are plenty of alternative models around, plus of course that fab ebay

[shelfunit.]

Oh, don't get me wrong, the prices at the time were insane! What I'm saying, is that years later (today!) the tanks sets (Chimeras, for example. So much for what are basic transports in the game) and those same infantry sets are so much worse now

I 100% agree, for the infantry (especially after this years 10-20% Epic price hikes) taking the Imperial guard infantry set - you get 32 stands of infantry for £15. In general 6mm terms this is still pretty good - but only because they are plastic, if they were metal they would be at least 50% more expensive than that.

Luckily for my group, most of us were happy sticking to Orks and Marines, which we had plenty of great models for from the boxed game. Starting, say, Tyranids (as one of us did) with only new kits available was much harder, which led to using lots of expensive points-wise models being used, rather than hordes of termagants etc.

People today are a little spoiled. There are plenty of alternative models around, plus of course that fab ebay

Ebay is one of the main things keeping Epic alive, there are a few 6mm producers around as you say, and they are helping fill in some gaps, but ebay is where all Marine/ork/eldar armies can be kitted out for next to nothing. Tyranid plastics are horribly expensive on ebay - I was lucky enough to pick up 10 sprues for £25 on Taccoms a few months ago, but that is unlikely to ever happen again.

[Zenithfleet]

Ebay is one of the main things keeping Epic alive, there are a few 6mm producers around as you say, and they are helping fill in some gaps, but ebay is where all Marine/ork/eldar armies can be kitted out for next to nothing. Tyranid plastics are horribly expensive on ebay - I was lucky enough to pick up 10 sprues for £25 on Taccoms a few months ago, but that is unlikely to ever happen again.

Having just managed to find some Tyranid sprues on the cheap - by which I mean 'costing slightly more than they'd cost if GW stocked them today' - I have to ask: why of all the Epic armies did their plastics never get put back into production?

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Chaos infantry sprue was OOP for a few years, then reintroduced under Fanatic/Specialist Games. I know a lot of the infantry sprues are missing some of the extra character models/troop types, but at least they're there. Did the meagre trickle of support from GW just run out before they got around to the bugs?

As for Terminators and transport capacity there was no rule for 'bulky' troops in E:40K so as far as the rules go you could put 2 stands in Land Raider. You'll just have to pretend they're Spartans or Crusaders or something.

I've browsed through my 2nd ed rulebooks and apparently Rhinos could carry Terminators back then, albeit only a five-man squad. Actually, it's not clear - the Dark Millennium datafax says they can, but the Ultras codex says they can't. (And the datafax in the starter box says Rhinos can carry Dreadnoughts )

I suppose the same problem applies to Ogryns and Chimeras, though I've never owned an IG Codex so I don't know what their 40K transport options are. Presumably they're bigger than Terminators so maybe they can't get in transports at all?

Anyway, I'm considering making a house rule that Terminators and Ogryns (and possibly others) are 'bulky', as suggested, and occupy twice as much space as other infantry. So you could fit 1 stand in a Rhino/Chimera in an emergency (i.e. using somebody else's transport upgrade), but not 2 stands, and you couldn't bring as many in a Thunderhawk. Not sure if I should drop their points cost to reflect this...

In other news, after an evening spent prepping SM infantry for undercoating, I can only hope that if there is indeed a special hell reserved for WAAC players and people who talk at the theatre, cleaning up 6mm mould lines is involved somewhere.

[shelfunit.]

Having just managed to find some Tyranid sprues on the cheap - by which I mean 'costing slightly more than they'd cost if GW stocked them today' - I have to ask: why of all the Epic armies did their plastics never get put back into production?

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Chaos infantry sprue was OOP for a few years, then reintroduced under Fanatic/Specialist Games. I know a lot of the infantry sprues are missing some of the extra character models/troop types, but at least they're there. Did the meagre trickle of support from GW just run out before they got around to the bugs?

It's probably a combination of several things, moulds wearing out and the game being (to all intents and purposes) dropped coupled with the design changes to the 40k versions of the models. If GW ca't be bothered to support a game they most certainly won't bother to release/rerelease any plastics for it.