Better way to run tyranid horde list?

[twistedmarine]

So, I was looking at the guard codex and I got to thinking that they can run a horde army better than my nids. Then I thought what if the tyranid troops section was set up in a similar way?

Something like this:

Tyranid brood x amount of points

Each brood must have 1-3 warriors squads
1-3 hormagaunts squad
1-3 Termagaunts squad
0-2 genestealers squad

That's just a general idea of course, but what do yall think? You'd still have to have an option for single squads of the different troops in reckon, but the brood selection could be cheaper points wise. Most of our troops could do with losing a point or two(except Termagaunts, I think they're just right).

[Threeshades]

It would go against the fluff of tyranids. they don't organize like the imperial guard and their different genotypes are bred independently, it wouldn't make sense that the number of hormagaunts or stealers would be dependant on the number of termagaunts or warriors. Genestealers are especially unfit for suich an organization because they are such an over-specialized and removed strain of tyranids, much further from the central tyranid strain than warriors (who are basically the archetype tyranid strain) or even gaunts.

And as for their application as hordes in the game: Tyranid horde lists don't suffer because of the limited FOC space, but because of the necessity (unlike IG or Orks, we cant put heavy weapons or S4 models wiht powerfists into our throwaway troop units) and high points costs of non-gaunt models (name a multiwound tyranid model other than swarms that costs less than 30 points; or better yet name an effectively fieldable multiwound tyranid model that costs less than 45 points).

[Col. von Dryden]

Actually we had something like this in Epic back in the day (HIVE WAR?). You started with a dominatrix, then moved down the "chain" of synapse until you ran out of points or no more "slots" to fill. (Synapse had a number of arrows denoting how good they were and thus how many units they could lead).

I personally like the idea of 1 Warriors, 0-3 Termies, 0-3 Hormies, May add Venomthropes like IG commissars. Stealers stay seperate. Then again, it doesn't address the T4 problem we have....(Go T5 already like the community wanted back in the 4-5ed switch).

[nedius]

The idea works quite well.

Each Troop unit consists of a 'hive node' - A warrior brood, zoanthrope or some such - and then their attached broods. It worked that way in Dawn of War 2. That fits nid fluff perfectly.

[twistedmarine]

It would go against the fluff of tyranids. they don't organize like the imperial guard and their different genotypes are bred independently, it wouldn't make sense that the number of hormagaunts or stealers would be dependant on the number of termagaunts or warriors. Genestealers are especially unfit for suich an organization because they are such an over-specialized and removed strain of tyranids, much further from the central tyranid strain than warriors (who are basically the archetype tyranid strain) or even gaunts.

And as for their application as hordes in the game: Tyranid horde lists don't suffer because of the limited FOC space, but because of the necessity (unlike IG or Orks, we cant put heavy weapons or S4 models wiht powerfists into our throwaway troop units) and high points costs of non-gaunt models (name a multiwound tyranid model other than swarms that costs less than 30 points; or better yet name an effectively fieldable multiwound tyranid model that costs less than 45 points).

I agree it wouldn't be a fix for the codex, but I think it would work well. And I wasn't suggesting they should organize like the imperial guard, just have a troop selection similar to how their platoons work. It would give the nids an option to have a large group of troops in one slot.

And I wasn't thinking, genestealers should definitely be on their own.

[shadekiller]

while it makes fluff sense to have a required number of synapse choice, the things is ou horde troops are not really capable enough to be worth drowing your ennemy with it. You are better off with some large mobs supported by large critters and support units if you want to run horde nids. so modifying the FOC make little difference IMHO

[Xerkics]

And Remember Your mob can be only as large as your willing to paint , otherwise it will just look awfull. Unpainted gaunts suck.

[Vepr]

Nids no longer seem like a horde army to me and it has kind of been that way since 3rd edition. I played a semi horde in 4th but most people just played MC spam for good reason. Gaunts and gants are not that cheap really when you compare their stats to other armies and gants need a tervigon to be semi useful as anything other than cannon fodder and to make gaunts useful you have to make them 8 to 10 points which is really expensive for a t3 model with a 6+ save.

Our basic guys need a lot of support from tervigons with catalyst or the adrenal and poison buffs from the tervigons for the gants to just compare to other armies basic troops. Warriors are expensive and die very easily due to all the high strength shooting and stealers are an aggressive fragile assault unit period with no shooting and their cost. Rippers.... lol. All of our troop choices get removed by the handful which would be fine if they were cheaper. Our best troop choice is a 160 point MC which seems odd for what everyone considers a "horde" army.

[Toadius80]

Ever thought you could be playing things wrong then? I've seen some quite competitive nid hoard armys. Usually there tactics involved steaming forward with the hoards of small gribblys and locking down the enemy then engaging any threats with warriors with boneswords or such. Its when people start putting in the likes of multiple carnies or the other costly things that they tend to loose sight of a hoard army and attempt elite army status and nid hoard just can't do that, it works on speed & numbers to mob the enemy and restrict them while everything else chews them up.

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[itcamefromthedeep]

The problem with Tyranid hordes is that they can't handle anything more than light infantry and sometimes MCs if upgraded with poison.

If for instance Hormagaunts had an option for rending claws, Fleshborers had rending, Devourers were something more like S2 assault 2 and always caused Instant Death (at a comparable price to the other guns), spinefists were poisoned (if even only poison 5+), and spike rifles had a 24" range then a Tyranid horde would have ways of fighting more kinds of troops. That way fleshborers could hurt vehicles, spinefists could hurt MCs, devourers could hurt super-elite infantry & characters, Hormagaunts could fight even ARM 11 rear ground vehicles & Dreads, and Spike rifles could hold ground while doing more than twiddle their fused thumbs.

Gaunt weaponry right now is too homogeneous, particularly in units that don't bring anti-tank specialists. That lack of anti-tank specialists necessitates the presence of bigger Tyranids.

---

As it is Gaunts and Gants do a few jobs very well, even without a Tervigon nearby. They are inexpensive objective-holders, they work as bubble-wrap, they tarpit low-Attack units and they work wonders in combo-charges where you have the Gants engage their Fist or IC and have some other Tyranid unit face only a few enemies, minimizing the damage on your more valuable models.

The combination of cheap troops that are Fearless at any unit size and better more fragile assault troops is rare in 40k, and Tyranids are in the best position to take advantage of it.

[Vepr]

Ever thought you could be playing things wrong then? I've seen some quite competitive nid hoard armys. Usually there tactics involved steaming forward with the hoards of small gribblys and locking down the enemy then engaging any threats with warriors with boneswords or such. Its when people start putting in the likes of multiple carnies or the other costly things that they tend to loose sight of a hoard army and attempt elite army status and nid hoard just can't do that, it works on speed & numbers to mob the enemy and restrict them while everything else chews them up.

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It works better in 6th than it did in 5th due to the fearless changes but the small nids just melt under concentrated fire even with cover. Armies like IG, Crons, SW, Orks, and GK can put out a lot of firepower. I generally play with a brood of 30 gargs, 30 gaunts, and 20 gants with my tervigons so I am pretty much running a horde after spawns along with a Tyrant and friends and hive guard etc. Vehicles have gotten easier to deal with but fliers are making up for it. Played an Ork army recently and between the scorcha boma, lootas, and shoota boyz it was amazing how much firepower they put out. My screening units were vaporized in short order. I still enjoy playing nids but in my opinion they are not a competitive horde army.

[Baaltor]

Why not take this a step further and have at least two versions of this? One for broods of Gaunts, and one for broods of genestealers like this:

1-3 Genestealer units
0-3 Brood brothers
0-3 Hybrids

[Col. Tartleton]

Reduce Point Costs by Approximately 1/2 and give them Platoons in just about every slot... NEVER ENOUGH NIDS!!!

FOC:

3 HQ
4 Elites
8 Troops
4 Fast Attack
4 Heavy Support

HQs:

Hive Tyrant Guard Swarm

1-2 Hive Tyrants
80 Points
Unit Size 1

0-1 Swarmlord
150 Points
Unit Size 1

0-3 Tyrant Guard
30 Points
Unit Size 1-3

0-3 Hive Guard
25 Points
Unit Size 1-3

Elites:

Zoanthrope Brood

1 Zoanthrope Brood
30 Points Each
Unit Size 1-3
May add the Doom of Malan'tai for 50 Points

Venomthrope Brood

1 Venomthrope Brood
25 Points Each
Unit Size 1-3

Ygmarl Genestealers Brood

1 Ygmarl Genestealers Brood
15 Points Each
Unit Size 5-10

Troops:

Endless Gaunt Swarm

1 Tyranid Warriors Brood
20 Points Each
Unit Size: 3-9
May add a Tyranid Prime to the Brood for 45 Points

1-3 Tyranid Termagaunts Brood
2.5 Points Each
Unit Size: 10-30
May add a Tyranid Warrior to the Brood for 20 Points
May add a Tyannid Tervigon to the Brood for 80 Points

0-3 Tyranid Hormagaunts Brood
3 Points Each
Unit Size: 10-30
May add a Tyranid Warrior to the Brood for 20 Points

0-3 Tyranid Ripper Swarms
5 Points Each
Unit Size: 3-9

0-1 Tyranid Carnifex Brood
80 Points Each
Unit Size 1-3

Genestealer Brood

1 Genestealer Brood
8 Points Each
Unit Size 5-20

Fast Attack:

Leviathan Gargoyle Swarm

1 Tyranid Shrikes Brood
25 Points Each
Unit Size: 3-9
May add a Winged Tyranid Prime to the Brood for 55 Points

0-1 Parasite of Mortrex
80 Points
Unit Size 1

0-3 Tyranid Gargoyle Brood
2.5 Points Each
Unit Size: 10-30
May add a Tyranid Shrike to the Brood for 25 Points

0-3 Tyranid Sky Slasher Swarms
7.5 Points Each
Unit Size: 3-9

0-1 Tyranid Harpy Brood
80 Points Each
Unit Size 1-3

Subterranean Ravener Swarm

1 Tyranid Trygon Prime
120 Points
Unit Size: 1

0-3 Tyranid Ravener Brood
25 Points Each
Unit Size: 3-9

0-3 Tyranid Ripper Tunnel Swarms
6 Points Each
Unit Size: 3-9

0-1 Tyranid Trygon
100 Points Each
Unit Size 1

0-1 Tyranid Mawloc
80 Points Each
Unit Size 1

Heavy Support:

Screamer Killer Swarm

1 Tyranid Warriors Brood
20 Points Each
Unit Size: 3-9
May add a Tyranid Prime to the Brood for 55 Points

0-3 Tyranid Carnifex Brood
80 Points Each
Unit Size 1-3
May add Old One Eye to the Brood for 140 Points

Collossal Bombardment Swarm

1 Tyranids Lictor Brood
45 Points Each
Unit Size 1-3
May add a Deathleaper to the Brood for 70 Points

0-3 Tyranid Pyrovore Broods
35 Points Each
Unit Size 1-3

0-3 Tyranid Biovore Broods
35 Points Each
Unit Size 1-3

03 Tyannid Spore Mine Clusters
5 Points Each
Unit Size 3-6

0-1 Tyranid Tyrannofex
180 Points Each
Unit Size 1

[itcamefromthedeep]

Reduce Point Costs by Approximately 1/2 and give them Platoons in just about every slot...

That's *******' nuts.

25-point Hive Guard?
... really?
... like... on a serious?

[Col. Tartleton]

No, not on a serious. Realistically it should only be Nids get 125% Points but I felt like it.

[Vepr]

I think our little guys could stand to lose a point each and have weapons swaps for free or cheap on gants with gaunts only paying 1 per slot for poison and adrenal like gargs. Our warriors could use about a 5 point reduction and cheaper options. Most MCs could use a point reduction of 10% to 20% depending on which ones you are talking about. Genestealers are a hard one in my opinion. I think at their current cost they either need frag spines for free or an extra attack. They have always been a glass cannon but with more effective shooting in 6th they are starting to look like a glass nail.

Lictors should be even cheaper for what little they do and pyrovores could probably be half the cost and still not taken that often. The Parasite should be around 120 in my opinion. It is a delicate balancing game though because you could quickly turn the nids from lackluster to nightmares if you went over board with point reductions. Really though with point adjustments you could leave the codex as is for the most part and make a big difference for nids.

[Xerkics]

I feel what warriors need is T5 to make them really viable and keep the cost the same. Or let us upgrade them to T5, i love warriors i have 3 broods and hardly ever play them as i hate seeing them get ID all the time.

[Threeshades]

T5 W2 and costs slightly down would be the way i would like to see them go. It doesnt make any sense to me that warriors have more wounds than "Guard" type tyranids. And i think most tyranid models should stay cheap for their size, to really maintain their hordy aspect. The only things i really feel should be expensive (but still worth their points) are the really big ones, like Trygons and Tyrannofexes.