SWTOR Going fully F2P this fall

[Voss]

Ugh. that isn't what Yodhrin is saying. He is saying each class has its unique bits, but a large chunk of the game's questing content (not warzones and flashpoints, but planetary quests) is NOT unique. Hacking through the jungles of Dromund Kos, playing fetch for the Revanites and murdering crazy people in the Dark Temple is part of every single imperial playthrough, and it gets boring really fast. And the shared planetary quest content outstrips the unique class content by a significant margin. That is his objection.

Your sub numbers are well out of date (not surprising with that last article being from back in may). They've lost at least another 300,000.
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-19077238

[eldargal]

That is what I addressed in my first post where I said Bioware never promised completely unique experiences for each class, merely unique stories for each which they have delivered. Thanks for that link, I tried to find more up-to date information but I could not. The fact remains that over the first six months SWTOR subscription numbers did not drop faster than WARs, quite the opposite.

[Stormtrooper Clark]

Why would I play a poorly made WoW clone when I can play... well, WoW.

The class stories were mediocre at best. Yes, even the Agent was overhyped. BioWare's medicore plots that get praised by the masses because they're the mainstream company for "stories" and we all know what good those degrees in writing did for them with Mass Effect 3. For all the hype surrounding them it made for a less painful levelling experience (the first time around anyway) to be sure, but they obviously didn't look ahead to the inevitable issue of what happens when those plots are wrapped up and we're dumped into the endgame. Woo, voice acting... even The Secret World has more than SWTOR and they didn't base their whole bloody selling point around that fact either nor exclusively use Gideon Emery and Steve Blum.

I'd give them more props if they tried unique ideas and made a farce of it than trying to copy/paste WoW again and thinking throwing money at it would work wonders. They (Mythic and EA) should have learnt that lesson with WAR but in their infinite wisdom thought lobbing millions at a game somehow makes it better. Spoiler: It doesn't.

The fact remains that over the first six months SWTOR subscription numbers did not drop faster than WARs, quite the opposite.

Just because the **** doesn't smell as bad doesn't mean it's not a ****. Those subscriptions still sunk very quickly. We're going through the same motions as WAR's failure did and it all starts to feel a lot like deja vu.

[forthegloryofkazadekrund]

Did they not say that they had 2.4million box sales, thats before the digital sales and now they are down to around 700k subs, not very good

[logan054]

It's not a bad game, I played it up to lvl50 with my sith marauder (never did the end boss, was impossible ), pay up to something like lvl30 with some jedi consular, then I was like you know what, I really can't be arsed to spend the money to finish this character, F2P means I might actually finish off my characters, maybe even start a new one.

[Cypher]

If the result of their initial analysis of the F2P model was "It's less profitable than the subscription model while we have more than X subscribers" and they've now dipped below X, it can of course be in response to the drop

I suspect it's been the plan all along: run a sub model for a period, switch when the recurring subscriber base reaches a certain point. Maybe happened sooner than expected, but I reckon it's been on the cards a while.

[eldargal]

I stopped reading at WoW Clone. You always know someone is struggling to find legitimate grievances when they accuse a game of being a WoW clone. What they actually mean is 'it's an MMO'.

Why would I play a poorly made WoW clone when I can play... well, WoW.

Giving (nearly) each class a healing build is exactly what WoW did.
Having companion based crafting is exactly what WoW did.
Having a variety of companions to help offset class weaknesses is exactly that WoW did.
Because being fully voiced is exactly what WoW did.
etc.

[stormblade]

I stopped reading at WoW Clone. You always know someone is struggling to find legitimate grievances when they accuse a game of being a WoW clone. What they actually mean is 'it's an MMO'.

Not necessarily, they say EVE is something entirely different.

[eldargal]

True enough, certainly there are exceptions. But MMOs like SWTOR and WoW existed before WoW and they will exist after, WoW is simply the most successful. It doesn't make one a clone of the other when there are significant differences both cosmetically and in terms of gameplay.

[Stormtrooper Clark]

I stopped reading at WoW Clone. You always know someone is struggling to find legitimate grievances when they accuse a game of being a WoW clone. What they actually mean is 'it's an MMO'.


Giving (nearly) each class a healing build is exactly what WoW did.
Having companion based crafting is exactly what WoW did.
Having a variety of companions to help offset class weaknesses is exactly that WoW did.
Because being fully voiced is exactly what WoW did.
etc.

It has exceptions, but fundimentally the core of the game is the same. MMO doesn't always equal "hotkey based raiding like WoW" it's just the majority take that approach because they think it's the most successful. See; EvE, Darkfall, Guild Wars 2, End of Nations, WW2 Online, Planetside 2, etc, etc. There's a reason people call it a WoW-Clone and not a Generic MMO. I'm aware WoW in itself was hardly the first MMO to do what it did, but don't tell me the money hungry EA executives didn't look at WoW as being the market leader and thought it would be a good idea to copy I dunno... DAoC (If they did that, WAR might have been good) or Everquest.

Companions are glorified pets that all classes get.
Giving most classes a non-DPS role is not revolutionary. If you go into a AC with pure DPS (Sniper, Sentinel, etc) the problem is the same.
Being fully voiced means little when most people skip it on their second playthrough. The Secret World managed it with a much, much, smaller budget.

Levelling? Fetch and "Kill X Mobs" with generic Imperial/Republic officers telling you how important it is. Even WoW has more variety in its levelling.
Story? Yeah, they were decent. It was about the only unique thing SWTOR did.
Warzones? Just take Battleground and change the title.
Operations? Well, raids.
Flashpoints? Dungeons.

I'll just leave this here:
http://auditorydepredation.files.wor...6231905169.jpg

The whole SWTOR saga feels like BioWare wanted to try and make KOTOR3 but EA in their infinite wisdom decided to take another crack at "follow the leader", assuming that the Star Wars IP and the BioWare label was enough to get fanboys to stick with it. It was a clearly rushed product, but even if it had been masterfully polished and not thrown out for the Christmas masses the core problems - IE that it's WoW with lasers - would be there. You almost never see complaints about the story because the only unique thing they added they did admittedly do decently with but the rest of the game was extremely anti-climatic and felt like you were going through the motions.

RIFT is a clone too, but at least they pump out enough content to keep people interested. EA just gave their team the chopping block and had the survivors bury their heads in the sand, pretending nothing was wrong to please the investors who are now quickly abandoning ship. I don't doubt F2P will help the numbers and SWTOR isn't going to die overnight, but ultimately it will be remembered as a failed product by the industry.

SWTOR isn't a bad game per say, it's just that there's better games out there.

[eldargal]

Ah, so a WoWclone is a game where things are the same excpet when they are different? Right. Like I said, all those things apply to most MMOs before and after WoW.

*gasp* two melee classes that both melee the same way! It's almost like there are only so many ways you can melee or something.

WoW built on what a whole slection of MMOs did before it when it launched in 2003. SWTOR did that for the previous decades MMOs. Of course there will be similarities, they are fundamentally similar types of game. But calling one a clone of the other is just idiotic and simplistic. SWTOR is no more a clone of WoW than WoW was of Everquest.

[Stormtrooper Clark]

Ah, so a WoWclone is a game where things are the same excpet when they are different? Right. Like I said, all those things apply to most MMOs before and after WoW.

*gasp* two melee classes that both melee the same way! It's almost like there are only so many ways you can melee or something.

WoW built on what a whole slection of MMOs did before it when it launched in 2003. SWTOR did that for the previous decades MMOs. Of course there will be similarities, they are fundamentally similar types of game. But calling one a clone of the other is just idiotic and simplistic. SWTOR is no more a clone of WoW than WoW was of Everquest.

Don't tell me EA looked at Everquest and DAoC when they made SWTOR. If they did the latter WAR might have been a decent game. WoW is at the top of the MMO scrapheap and they were under the brilliant impression that by following the leader you're going to get a game millions of people want to play for an extended period. Was WoW original in itself? No, but it's clear EA-BioWare wanted a slice of its pie.

Yes, there are plenty of ways melee can work. AoC had its unique system, Guild Wars 2 has it, TERA has its 'slasher game' style, Darkfall's was similar to TES'. It's logic that "WoW did it that way and it's the most popular, so it's the only way" is the type of thinking that leads to MMOs being in the cesspit of rehashed buggy clones we find ourselves in today.

[eldargal]

I wouldn't question any of that, but by the same token none of that makes SWTOR a WoW clone. Did it draw inspiration from WoW? Of course, you would be insane not too to look at successful MMOs and WoW was the most successful. But that still doesn't make SWTOR a clone especially when many of the things people cite did not originate in WoW but were simply refined by WoW. Also, read what I said. I said SWTOR looked at the generation of MMOs heralded by WoW, not those before. WoW drew inspiration from EQ and DAoC. Doesn't make it a EQ clone. SWTOR drew inspiration from WoW. Doesn't make it a WoW clone.

It's funny you should mention AoC, I followed that game through its development and people called it a WoW clone too. Even its combat system, the differences were just derided as cosmetic and people ignored them in favour of similarities. Most other MMOs as well. It's why I react so strongly against it, it isn't an argument, its a baseless insult. SWTOR is not a WoW clone, in some ways it is very similar in others it is radically different (and in my opinion, superior).

I have no problem with people disliking SWTOR for whatever reason, but I do have a problem with people peddling this particular delusion.

[Stormtrooper Clark]

Delusion? Hardly. If SWTOR was unique or at least fundamentally different it would likely have kept those million or so people hooked. One of the reasons WoW is dying a slow death is because eight years of the same game drags on. When you've got another theme park "kill bosses with hotkey attack, tank, DPS and healer, etc" MMO with a flashy new skin that is very, very, very, similar to WoW those people are going to burn out much more quickly than with say... EvE which is actually unique. For the most part what SWTOR tried to do that was rather new; class stories, crafting, etc it did do well but so much else was 'samey' that people got fatigued very quickly.

[eldargal]

Your entire post is speculation and assumptions stated as fact. Bioware say most people cancelling their subscription have cited the scubscription model, not gameplay, as the primary reason, hence the mtaking this action. Do you have any data to contradict this?

For the most part what SWTOR tried to do that was rather new; class stories, crafting, etc it did do well but so much else was 'samey' that people got fatigued very quickly.

So you agree it isn't a WoW clone now? Just that perhaps they mishandled some things? I wouldn't disagree with that.

The irony, for me, is that I was dead against SWTOR from its announcement to early 2011. I loved what SWG tried to do and hated the idea of a Jedi themed SW game. Some of the trailers convinced me to give it a try and I ended up loving it.

P.S. Sorry if I came on a big strong, I jsut get really fed up with peopel labelling MMOs 'WoW clones' when mostly they are not. I've seen it happen wit hso many good MMOs it really frustrates me because it nearly always bears down to 'I'm focusing on the similarities and ignoring the differences to justify the claim' rather than any kind of actual analysis of what faults the MMO may have.

[Stormtrooper Clark]

I'm not stating facts, but if you go to any message board discussing the game more often than not the reason given will be "It's too similar to WoW/Other Theme Park MMOs". BioWare are probably just pulling a PR twist to justify their new model as catering to the fans, or interpreting "I'm not paying £10 for this" as "I'd play if it was free" so to speak.

I think you might be mistaking the expression of "WoW Clone" as meaning a 100% direct copy-paste when what I mean is more "It's very, very, very, strongly influenced and based off WoW's model".

[eldargal]

Message boards, especially those dedicated to MMOs, are cesspits. I wouldn't believe a word they say. There was one person on Bioware Social who quit the game eight times for five different reasons in the first two months, for example. Bioware says they are changing the subscription model because most people say they are quitting because of the monthyl subscriptions. I see a lot of people say they would like to pla but for monthly subscriptions. So I'm going with them, in the absence of any other reliable evidence.

No, I'm assuming that is what it means, I just question the definition. SWTOR looked at what worked in the more popular MMOs and used it but did a lot of things differently. It took inspiration from WoW but it was not based off WoW.

[Stormtrooper Clark]

If it was a few scattered whiners I might be inclined to agree, but practically my whole guild on the game said the same thing to me as well and I'm more inclined to believe them and the others than BioWare's Damage Control/PR Department. People are getting tired of hot key theme parks and even WoW is starting to die in large part due to this. Remember when they also said "We had no idea people disliked the Mass Effect 3 endings"? Yeeeaahhh..

It did things differently to be sure, but I still believe it was based quite heavily off WoW. That's just my view anyway and I think we're going in circles a bit now.

[nagash66]

If it was a few scattered whiners I might be inclined to agree, but practically my whole guild on the game said the same thing to me as well and I'm more inclined to believe them and the others than BioWare's Damage Control/PR Department. People are getting tired of hot key theme parks and even WoW is starting to die in large part due to this. Remember when they also said "We had no idea people disliked the Mass Effect 3 endings"? Yeeeaahhh..

It did things differently to be sure, but I still believe it was based quite heavily off WoW. That's just my view anyway and I think we're going in circles a bit now.

+1 to this. I bought the game, loved the game, played the game for about two months. After that 9ie once the stories run out) it was basically another grind/raid fest like wow but with less/worse end game content/pvp. I ened up giving it up along with most of my guild because there just wasn't enough unique aspects to it to keep me paying.

Will probably end up playing a sith storyline now that it is going f2p.

[Wicksy]

Ah....its like a little part of the WoW boards have come over to Warseer

I must admit, i wasnt too enthused with SWTOR. It looks great and the the story seems cool but i never got on with it.... i started mmos with RIFT. It was, and is a good wow clone but once i'd done it all, nothing else, no matter the game is new. I think this is the issue with MMOs now. All the mechanics for raids have been done before. Nothing is different. Once you've done it in one game thats it. New mmo's just sit there waiting for the guilds from the last big thing to come in, hit the level cap within a few days and then rape the content and leave the game a burned out husk. There's no mystery, no reason to drive yourself forward. Its like catching the end of a movie then releasing you now have no desire to watch the whole film as good as it may be.

I'll prolly finish my sith storyline with the f2p system though no access to flash points and operations will suck balls. Most of the fun for me in mmo's was tanking dungeons and raids.