Aside from your crummy #6 spell, I actually really like the Lore of Nehekara.
Fire
Metal
Heavens
Shadow
Life
Death
Beasts
Light
Aside from your crummy #6 spell, I actually really like the Lore of Nehekara.
Nehekhara is alright but then you look at something like the Lore of the Vampires.
Thousand Sons/Daemons of Tzeentch/Vampire Counts
There is a way through the coming darkness. But to find it we must change.
We must change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither god nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.
The crummy number 6 spell is as powerful if not more so than purple sun against most armies' core infantry. I'd take it any day over the ogres' crummy number 6 spell.
... and then I won.
Well, if we're comparing crummy number 6 spells...
Yeah, it's not as bad as I'm making it out to be, but it is still one of the weaker lores in all of WHFB if not the weakest (another interesting poll perhaps?). Skullstorm would be much better if it didn't have a chance to backfire. It doesn't make sense why it does that at all, and makes it feel like an O&G spell without the destructive power that comes with such risks like Foot of Gork. I have to admit I've never once cast it in 20 or so games with my tomb kings because the 5+ ward spell and Incantation of Smiting are usually so much better at any given time due to the nature of the army and it's raising mechanic.
Smiting is one of my favourite spells in the game, but still pales in overall effectiveness if matched up against the similar Birona's time warp spell. The extra range of the spell is handy, as is the additional ranged shots, but the doubled movement is so incredibly useful especially in an army that can't march. It just feels like there is a comparable spell from lores in the BRB (albeit not in the same Lore, which is an upside of sorts) for almost every spell in the Lore of Nehekara that does those jobs better and sometimes for a cheaper casting cost to boot.
Well the thing about army book lores is that they're designed with that specific army's balance in mind unlike rulebook lores.
That's why Lore of the Great Maw isn't ridiculously overpowered, Ogres are good enough already!
Nehekhara could stand to be a touch better than it is, but not much.
Thousand Sons/Daemons of Tzeentch/Vampire Counts
There is a way through the coming darkness. But to find it we must change.
We must change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither god nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.
Naw, Nekharia is easily the worst book lore in the modern era of codecii. I mean, Cruddace made their version of Soulblight a ton harder to cast for the exact same effect. Its so bad, that I really do not even bother to dispell anything other than the Casket or IwishIwasasgoodassoulblight. Its really sad, because they have more ways to get more power dice than any other army in the newer books, but they get shafted with this amazingly bad lore. Of course any time they feel bad about it they can take solace in the fact that they could be stuck with Lore of Athel Loren or Lore of the Wild.
Now, I know I am about to get flamed for this, but I feel the Ogre lore is pretty terrible, too, because nearly every spell in it exists in more efficient form in another lore, most even in core main rulebook lores. This is an issue it shares with Nekharia, along with a kind of lackluster signiure spell. At least the lore attribute on the Ogre lore does something descent (better than the actual spells themselves in most cases) and the buy out to use a better lore is a lot cheaper than what the Tomb Kings get shafted with.
Little Waagh is actually my personal favorite out of the 8th edition book lores. Lore of the Wild is the weakest of all the lores in the game, main rulebook or otherwise. Dark Lore is probably the second best lore in the game, but it gets overshadowed by Shadow in the DE army.
Dude that is just disgusting. Don't get me wrong you're a genius for thinking of it but surely you can't argue that's what GW intended?Originally Posted by WusteGeist
Just on another note my list goes:
1.Shadow
2.Death- i know strange choice but you've got 3 character assassination spells, an extremely good debuff, a LD debuff and ogre killing vortex. Also they are all relatively low casting and it's the best lore attribute in the game IMO.
3.Life but only really if you are putting alot of points into the wizard, e.g. slann to get throne of vines off and still have dice for the other spells.
4.Light- Good buffs and debuffs
5.Fire- Simply because of flame cage (literally shuts down big units).
6.Beasts- Best basic spell IMO and potentially good others.
7.I really can't split heavens or metal tbh.
Last edited by Sh4d0w; 03-08-2012 at 11:41.
I'll tell you what mate; the fact that you've gotten 100% positive replies on Warseer of all places is as sure a sign as any that you should start the army.
Knowledge: Know your own and opponents armies rules and units.
Experience: Good grasp of tactics and how rules impact on this.
Luck: At least getting an average deal from the dice.
Psych: Sometimes you can convince the opponent they are facing an uphill battle.
Cute, but really anything you're wounding on 2+s is probably not something you need help with. It's not a bad spell though, not terribly cheap but magical attacks and flaming attacks are potentially useful too.
That's an average 7 hits of S4 for a 10+ casting value? Okay for killing light chaff - that's about it. Nothing wrong with the spell, but I'm not suddenly crazy about Fire.2 Fireball is stupid easy to cast and has a range of the board. 2d6 on a 10 at range 36"? Yes please.
...And pretty damn useless on anything else.3 Piercing bolts on rat ranks? Thats pretty damn handy.
*Sigh* This "trick" requires the assumption that switching places due to a challenge constitutes movement, or that stepping up constitutes movement. I do not see it played that you need to take dangerous terrain tests for stepping up, for example in a venom thicket. I've never seen it suggested! At the very least it is a dubious and probably not intended. If that's the best case you can make for Fire...4 Flame cage trick, my greatest trick of them all made famous. Fight a block with a character in it issue a challenge, as long as there character is not base to base with yours he must move and flame trick triggers. It has been made real by two supporting FAQ's and at least 2 Indy Gt's support the ruling. Not only that some tourney scene has said that now if you kill the unit champ it triggers. The unit champ version of this trick is NOT my doing I take no credit for that one.
Not that I don't think Flame Cage is an excellent spell, easily the best in Lore of Fire.
Last edited by Lord Inquisitor; 03-08-2012 at 14:22.
... and then I won.
This seems unlikely. They have access to other rulebook lores after all. Despite the butcher tax, if the Great Maw were deliberately underpowered, ogres would switch to another primary Lore. Plus Tomb Kings don't have an overpowered Lore either yet they're utterly reliant on magic.
A much more likely explanation is that the designers realised that perhaps they'd gone a little overboard with certain Lores in the rulebook and decided to tone it back a little after the rulebook was released. Suddenly no "initiative test or die outright" spells, much more reasonable casting values and ranges. While I still look at Shadow or Life with envious eyes, the Maw lore is solid and fairly costed, or I wouldn't use it.
Codexes or codecies... but they're army books man, this isn't 40K!
Uh, their version of Soulblight can outright win games in the boosted value. -3S and -3T on your main unit means they're just dead. It's a gamble - sucks if you roll a 1 and it doesn't do anything more than the unboosted version. A 5+ ward across the whole army isn't bad, not quite the Ogres' trollguts but can't be negated by flame. The Lore attribute is solid and can sometimes really catch opponents off guard. It's not amazing, sure, but it's not Lore of the Wild either.I mean, Cruddace made their version of Soulblight a ton harder to cast for the exact same effect. Its so bad, that I really do not even bother to dispell anything other than the Casket or IwishIwasasgoodassoulblight.
Or console themselves with Death or Light.Its really sad, because they have more ways to get more power dice than any other army in the newer books, but they get shafted with this amazingly bad lore. Of course any time they feel bad about it they can take solace in the fact that they could be stuck with Lore of Athel Loren or Lore of the Wild.
Yep, I agree. Pretty much every spell and attribute is found fairly equivalently for cheaper or better in another Lore. The only thing that sets the Ogre spells apart are the bubble effects.Now, I know I am about to get flamed for this, but I feel the Ogre lore is pretty terrible, too, because nearly every spell in it exists in more efficient form in another lore, most even in core main rulebook lores.
... and then I won.
In most of the new books you are forced to take your army book lore on at least one Wizard, so you can't switch to a rulebook lore for everyone. Ogres only get what, Heavens, Beasts or Death anyway? No Shadow or Light to be extra overpowered.This seems unlikely. They have access to other rulebook lores after all. Despite the butcher tax, if the Great Maw were deliberately underpowered, ogres would switch to another primary Lore. Plus Tomb Kings don't have an overpowered Lore either yet they're utterly reliant on magic.
A much more likely explanation is that the designers realised that perhaps they'd gone a little overboard with certain Lores in the rulebook and decided to tone it back a little after the rulebook was released. Suddenly no "initiative test or die outright" spells, much more reasonable casting values and ranges. While I still look at Shadow or Life with envious eyes, the Maw lore is solid and fairly costed, or I wouldn't use it.
Thousand Sons/Daemons of Tzeentch/Vampire Counts
There is a way through the coming darkness. But to find it we must change.
We must change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither god nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.
Right, but while Ogres would jump all over Life or Light, the new army Lores are in line and not worse than the "low tier" rulebook Lores. They just didn't repeat the mistakes of the top Lores, no instant death test spells, no +4 to strength or toughness.
... and then I won.
I don't know Lore of the Vampires is pretty damn strongthe new army Lores are in line
Thousand Sons/Daemons of Tzeentch/Vampire Counts
There is a way through the coming darkness. But to find it we must change.
We must change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither god nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.
I think Life - most people seem to be unable to use it if the twin crutches of Throne and Dwellers get kicked away.
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Vamps is deffinately a good lore, likely on par with heavens. I think its on par with Little Wagh, now that I think about the games where I have faced off against it. Little Wagh is just a lot more subtle and I have been able to hose people's normal magic phase tactics with the lore attribute.
I think the Lore of the Vampires is a special case. It does work very well with the Vampire Counts army, but isn't as spectacular as some of the BRB Lores. In particular, it doesn't manage to damage the enemy very well, but Invocation, Vanhel's and to a lesser extent Hellish Vigour are some of the best support spells in the game.
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There are some great lores, and the rest are situational rather than bad. Beasts is poor in general, but Bretonnia and Beastmen love it - beasts cos its better than their army book lore, and all-cav Bret armies can make good use. Wildformed peasants aren't shabby either. You need the right caster/army combo to make use of Life, but when its good its -very- good. Shadow, Light, and Death are all just generally solid. Heavens has some good spells and some howlers, but its understated and can work quite well (comet against gunlines, iceshard is really powerful). For me its a toss-up between Metal and Fire, and I'm going to have to go with Metal for one reason alone: in all my games of Fantasy (only been playing since midway through 7th, mind, but still), I have never faced lore of metal. Its just too situational, and the armies that can get it all have access to better choices. Fire is good to toss on a lv1 or lv2 for extra damage, but Metal just won't cut it.
But as far as magic missiles go it is the best spell. Banishment is close but shorter-ranged and not as versatile with three possible levels.
The Bolter is quite okay against almost all big units. You can deploy a Fire wizard on a flank against hordes but there's more than just Slaves in units of 50+ these days.
Of course you don't take a dangerous terrain test for any movement that is not specified in the list (and I don't think stepping up is movement either).*Sigh* This "trick" requires the assumption that switching places due to a challenge constitutes movement, or that stepping up constitutes movement. I do not see it played that you need to take dangerous terrain tests for stepping up, for example in a venom thicket. I've never seen it suggested! At the very least it is a dubious and probably not intended. If that's the best case you can make for Fire...
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Urgh, just the other day I had a lore of light wizard take out my daemon army almost single-handedly using just banishment and the other light missile.
I don't think you can use the bolts of burning like a cannon and treat files as ranks if you are in the flank. Flame head yes, bolts no.
Note I specifically gave venom thicket as the example, which triggers DT on any movement not just march/charge/flee/pursue.
Last edited by Lord Inquisitor; 06-08-2012 at 15:30.
... and then I won.
Fireball at the second level is stupid easy to get off and very efficient. But really, the best spells in Fire are Flame Cage and Sword of Ruin. Both are game turners, when used right. Reason I personally prefer Fire to Death is that it is more than a one spell wonder once you close in, but if I were going to play more gunline and/or point denial go for the minor win, death would likely be better.
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