Should I feel bad for challenging?

[TheConverter15]

just one more thing...

If someone who is a close mate throws a hissy fit (hopes thats a word in regular english) there are two ways to handle it. I've tried both. 1. is to have a bigger hissy fit than he is, and get up in his face, which generally leads to a blow out over little plastic dudemens. Not cool. 2. is to just chill, wait for him to calm down, and point out that he is infact being a whiney girl, and its not as cool as it sounds, and suggest to try carry on. This works, but you have to do it calmly with a cheeky grin.

Or hit him in the face

But the opponent is overreacting and seeing as this is part of the rules, he should get used to it. Personally, the rule is a great idea and it adds more fluffiness to the game. Its also great because you said that you were fighting tooth and nail whole game so a challenge guves you that chance to "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat" .But can you imagine this in the fluff ? A bloodthister challenges an overlord and the negron decides to start a hissy fit on how unfair that is and then runs away XD

[The_Klobb_Maniac]

:s. So two things:

-I can understand why he'd get upset. It's a bit sad when you own up a game and then lose because the.. way you were winning doesn't actually count. This has happened to me many times in many games; where you "should" win because you tear someone to basically nothing and the lose feels like a 'technicality'.
That said, it should be a moral victory for him for the most part and he should own up to the fact that it's really a loss, but who cares?

-He really shouldn't ACTUALLY throw a fit (and neither should you.) You agreed to play the game by a set of rules. Honestly, even if the rules seem imbalanced *it's your own fraggin' fault for agreeing to play the game.* If you honestly feel like you're playing with a hand behind your back ask for some house rule that gives a 100 point advantage (that stacks) for each loss in a row. At some point you'll find a balance that evens out skill levels and point levels to a point where it's 50/50.

The game should be fun. I've had a experiences in the game that are very frustrating, like when your opponent comes unprepared to deal with tanks, or only has one, or sometihng; and you watch an entire armies' (mine) firepower bounce off a fraggin AV12 tank just sitting in front of the guns. OH BOY, is that lame. That said, I've also seen things like my Night Scythe dropping 15 warriors across the board, free to shoot at full BS4 at DE warriors not in cover. I can imagine that it's lame when you don't realize the rule is that effective. Sometimes it's dice, sometimes it's misunderstanding; but you just have to eat it and hope it averages out to being a game you both have a good chance at winning or at least both enjoy.

[d6juggernaut]

Next thread： Should I feel bad for shooting the enemy models?

I honestly hope you're exaggerating because the person you described sounds like a complete man-child, since when is it a jerk move to try to win when you're behind? That makes no sense whatsoever. He overlooked a rule and he paid for it, that's how the game works, he needs to pay attention to the rules better next time instead of going "you tried to win instead of letting me win, what a jerk".

[Lord Damocles]

Is this how this works? We were wondering how that works. The MSS happen at the beginning of assault, when does the challenge happen?

Both happen at the same time, so the player whos turn it is gets to pick which one activates first.

[Caitsidhe]

In a game against my longtime and frequent opponent, I was playing as Chaos Daemons against Necrons, and charged a unit of Immortals lead by his Overlord (also Warlord) with my Warlord, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, Lord of Change. As his warlord trait, my Greater Daemon got the one where any characters he kills in a challenge will be worth an extra victory point (on a the personal tree)

Now, the battle had not been going my way, and I admit I was flustered when his exile ray randomly lucked out and obliterated my allied Chaos Lord in a unit of berzerkers, but otherwise, we had been pretty cordial (as usual).

Anyway, I of course issued a challenge with my Greater Daemon on his Overlord in hopes to either slay him or the 3 immortals left over. When I do that, my opponent erupts instantly into saying that it's a cheap rule which shouldn't exist, because it turns a game of units into a game of characters. Secondly, he suggested I was being a bit of a jerk because I had quote "no chance of winning the game if I didnt do this" and further that he had "no chance of beating me one-on-one with either the overlord or the immortals, and that forcing him to do so was, not kind of me. I disagreed with all of his suggestsions.

We got into a heated argument in which I raised my voice a few times, because I had felt like it was unfair to say my one chance at glory was cheap, when I've had to fight tooth and claw to stay in this game as Daemons to begin with...

Anyway, all this aside... should I feel bad for issuing a challenge? Should I save it for the tourney field and not against my usual opponent?

You should tell your opponent simply, "Don't hate the playa... hate the game." I don't care much for the degree of random in 6th Edition either, but if you agree to play it and don't agree to exclude certain rules from the start, then there is nobody to blame but yourselves. If he didn't like the rule he should have said, "let's not play with this idiotic filth" before the game started. If he wants to rage against stupid rules, that is his right. He should rage against the actual creators for said rules and not you, i.e. Game's Workshop. I carry a little card with GW's customer service number on it. If/when this kind of situation happens to me I suggest they call it and vent on the people who deserve the ire rather than me.

[mercury14]

In a game against my longtime and frequent opponent, I was playing as Chaos Daemons against Necrons, and charged a unit of Immortals lead by his Overlord (also Warlord) with my Warlord, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, Lord of Change. As his warlord trait, my Greater Daemon got the one where any characters he kills in a challenge will be worth an extra victory point (on a the personal tree)

Now, the battle had not been going my way, and I admit I was flustered when his exile ray randomly lucked out and obliterated my allied Chaos Lord in a unit of berzerkers, but otherwise, we had been pretty cordial (as usual).

Anyway, I of course issued a challenge with my Greater Daemon on his Overlord in hopes to either slay him or the 3 immortals left over. When I do that, my opponent erupts instantly into saying that it's a cheap rule which shouldn't exist, because it turns a game of units into a game of characters. Secondly, he suggested I was being a bit of a jerk because I had quote "no chance of winning the game if I didnt do this" and further that he had "no chance of beating me one-on-one with either the overlord or the immortals, and that forcing him to do so was, not kind of me. I disagreed with all of his suggestsions.

We got into a heated argument in which I raised my voice a few times, because I had felt like it was unfair to say my one chance at glory was cheap, when I've had to fight tooth and claw to stay in this game as Daemons to begin with...

Anyway, all this aside... should I feel bad for issuing a challenge? Should I save it for the tourney field and not against my usual opponent?

Your opponent is just whining.

[Marshal_Loss]

Daemons shouldn't feel bad for doing anything against Necrons lol

In all seriousness it is a legitimate rule, it isn't a particularly unbalanced rule either so there is no reason to feel bad for using it

[Iskandar]

A Necron Overlord at I2 probably isn't going to strike back against a daemon prince either way, especially given that there's only 3 Immortals remaining. It's not exactly a cake or death option is it?

[quantumcollider]

If he wanted to play according to a different set of rules, he should have informed you in advance.

[Infidel]

Necron characters with mind shackle scarabs are prolly one of the best in the game at challenges. Not only are they though and pack a punch, they also have roughly 50% chance to nullify the enemy character with mss.

This. In that situation, even without the Challenge mechanic the tiny necron squad will probably get smashed.

All Necron lords/overlords should have a MSS. If you don't, you're doing something wrong.

[DEADMARSH]

Good God. Does he cry if you shoot the backs of his tanks instead of the front?

Seriously- he has arguably the most Challenge-mitigating piece of wargear currently available to any army in his armory. It ain't your fault he didn't bring it.

[Lord Inquisitor]

In fairness, the challenge rules really benefit large, powerful single ICs. I think it is dumb that challenges work the way they do, allowing you to essentially give him the choice of neutering the squad or slinging his character. Its a win/win situation for you and theres just flat zero he can do about it. It's particularly absurd when it can mess up characters or squads without strong martial honour or even any comprehension of the concept (really, are tyranids going to abide by the rules of chivalrous combat?)

Sadly it's part of the game. It's going to result in some weird situations from time to time and it is going to be used almost always to gimp one side's attacks or the other's ... some people will see it as a tactical aspect of the game, others will see it as a gamey ploy with nothing to do with real tactics. Unfortunately it is here to stay so everyone needs to learn how to deal with it or they need to change the rules of the game.

Your best bet is just as you said earlier - finish the game without challenging. Have a chat about it afterwards. You were 100% within the rules in your declaration of a challenge and this is to be expected as a default option for large MC characters. Why wouldn't you challenge every turn with a greater daemon, daemon prince or whatever? There's simply no downside unless possibly if there's a multiple combat. Now, your friend won't be alone in thinking this is a stupid mechanic and that in this situation the rules have simply screwed him, so it's a good idea to acknowledge that. You may even consider some adjustment to the rule as a house rule. Which isn't a bad idea particularly if you don't play in a situation where you frequently play strangers, the challenge rules are probably the least well-considered rules in the rulebook. They seem to be there to allow mighty heroes to fight epic combats, not give MCs more or less immunity to power fist sergeants.

[Corvus Corone]

If he wants to house-rule challenges out of the game, then that's something he needs to discuss with his opponents before the game.

Otherwise, the rules are the rules; deal with it. You did no wrong.

[scapegoatboy69]

Sounds like it was the blow up moment and that you were each grating on each other the whole game.

Was there something else going on, outside the game, that contributed to the pair of you being more angry than normal? Some hangout time between friends is probably called for.

[Easy E]

The only thing wrong you guys did, was allow yourselves to get to caught up in the moment. If you win the game, guess what.... you have won NOTHING. If your friend wins.... he has won NOTHING.

You should have just offered to go grab a beer/soft drink and all stepped away from the table. Things were getting needlessly intense.

[ColShaw]

I think it's one of the dumbest rules currently in the game, as Lord Inquisitor says. Actually, he already made all the points I was going to make, so I'll just let his excellent post stand.

[A.T.]

...because I had quote "no chance of winning the game if I didnt do this"

Seems like a damn good reason to do it, unless he was suggesting you throw the game.

[Losing Command]

Your opponent reminds me of a guy that (playing Space wolves) goes into a mind-lock every time he has to play against grey knights, claiming that you can't lose with them, and that no matter what he does he'll lose, and more of that, and that the only thing he thinks might fix the 'issue' is quitting the game or buying Grey knights himself.
The funny part is when he does that after a battle against space marines that completely wiped him off the table by turn 3, while the knights needed all 7 turns. Should his opponent feel bad for brining Grey knights ? I'd say no. Some people seem to think that everything that makes them lose is unbalanced, often even right after it helped them.

[soonerfreak]

No, rules are rules. I don't get why he would erupt over it.

[The Red Pilgrim]

Seems like a damn good reason to do it, unless he was suggesting you throw the game.

This. If he's upset that you'd try to win, he isn't worth playing against.