Should I feel bad for challenging?

[Nezalhualixtlan]

You were not wrong or cheap and have nothing to feel bad about.

Challenges are now part of the legal ruleset. They are a tactical option available to bot players. And your goal is to win, you ought to be pulling out all the legal stops in pursuit of that goal. They aren't a cheap or cheesy move.

So it unfortunately sounds like your opponent was simply a poor sport. Part of playing a competitive game and having people not dislike you aftwards is being able to win graciously and lose with dignity.

So as far as I can see, you did the right thing, you outplayed him that game if this made you win, and he needs to avoid putting himself in that position next time if he doesn't want to get challenged.

[dala_karn]

In a game against my longtime and frequent opponent, I was playing as Chaos Daemons against Necrons, and charged a unit of Immortals lead by his Overlord (also Warlord) with my Warlord, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, Lord of Change. As his warlord trait, my Greater Daemon got the one where any characters he kills in a challenge will be worth an extra victory point (on a the personal tree)

Now, the battle had not been going my way, and I admit I was flustered when his exile ray randomly lucked out and obliterated my allied Chaos Lord in a unit of berzerkers, but otherwise, we had been pretty cordial (as usual).

Anyway, I of course issued a challenge with my Greater Daemon on his Overlord in hopes to either slay him or the 3 immortals left over. When I do that, my opponent erupts instantly into saying that it's a cheap rule which shouldn't exist, because it turns a game of units into a game of characters. Secondly, he suggested I was being a bit of a jerk because I had quote "no chance of winning the game if I didnt do this" and further that he had "no chance of beating me one-on-one with either the overlord or the immortals, and that forcing him to do so was, not kind of me. I disagreed with all of his suggestsions.

We got into a heated argument in which I raised my voice a few times, because I had felt like it was unfair to say my one chance at glory was cheap, when I've had to fight tooth and claw to stay in this game as Daemons to begin with...

Anyway, all this aside... should I feel bad for issuing a challenge? Should I save it for the tourney field and not against my usual opponent?

I think your gaming pal needs to learn how to micro manage his characters if he doesn't want them charged by CC competent characters. plus you're chaos, you have the added risk of being turned into a spawn for NOT challenging his leaders! :P

[Nubl0]

Just sounds like he wants to have fun at your expense. "Oh look at my awesome necrons blowing your pathetic daemons of the board hahaha" to "waaah he got into combat with me!" silly thing to get upset about, first its a game, second the objective is to win which you are both trying to do. So why wouldn't you challenge if it gives you an advantage? Finally necron overlords/lords are actually one of the best challengers in the game as they have mss and the labyrinth. Kinda sounds like a kid. I remember last time I went to the local gw for a pickup game and the kid got so angry and upset about his uber skarbrand being kited around and shot off the board by my DE hehe.

[Glabro]

This. If he's upset that you'd try to win, he isn't worth playing against.

Ah, the internet, always full of reasonable advice when it comes to longstanding human relations. People are always moderate and not at all condemning.

Seriously, it's a cruddy rule making a cool event into a metagame horror, but yes, it should be discussed after the game (or in the best case scenario, before) when cooler heads will prevail.

[Inevitable]

You were not wrong. The challenge was valid.

I had the named Wolf Lord charge my genestealers with a broodlord. Broodlord was buffed with +3 Str +3 Toughness (str 8 toughness 8).

It was a long-shot, but he 1 shot my genestealer. Then my unit fled. THen he caught me. It was a glorious death.

[Mag-El]

@Lord Inquisitor

You are simply wrong IMO. Challenges benefit for the most part Squads. If you how to handle it then most big monsters without back up are toast. If you have MSS or 3++ save on the overlord you you will win that engagemet with no worries, I would even assault it if I have a larger squad. Storm Shields on chars or 3++ Save are gonna make these monsters cry when these chars are in larger squads. 10 man squad gives two re-rolls on you 3++ save. If you have Ini 1 wepaon you see to it that you makes saves first then spend the rest to kill it. A Squad can decline a challenge whilst a large monster can not.

It is also easier to not let a Monster to wreck through units as fast with the challenge rule.

More often than not the extra guys won´t do squat to kill powerfull MCs but a re-roll for your char is alot better.

On topic

It is absurd to whine about your challenge. It is something he can do something about. You on the oterhand can´t do jack about his fliers when the arrive och shoots at you(more cause for whining).
He plays Necrons and you play Daemons, he whines!?!?!
People will always whine, it is part of the experiance when you play GW games and everybody thinks they are genius because the read all the "great" ways to play on the internet and if the would lose it is always bad luck och some cheese from the opponent. Whiners are raised without mirrors and can´t see the things they do themself or play with.

Ignore it for a while, if he keeps it up tell him gently to stop and use arguments(good ones=) ). He if insists and it bothers you find someone else to play with. It is not worth it for neither of you to be honest.

[Easy E]

One clarifying question. Do you generally "like" playing this guy?

[GodlessM]

In a game against my longtime and frequent opponent, I was playing as Chaos Daemons against Necrons, and charged a unit of Immortals lead by his Overlord (also Warlord) with my Warlord, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, Lord of Change. As his warlord trait, my Greater Daemon got the one where any characters he kills in a challenge will be worth an extra victory point (on a the personal tree)

Now, the battle had not been going my way, and I admit I was flustered when his exile ray randomly lucked out and obliterated my allied Chaos Lord in a unit of berzerkers, but otherwise, we had been pretty cordial (as usual).

Anyway, I of course issued a challenge with my Greater Daemon on his Overlord in hopes to either slay him or the 3 immortals left over. When I do that, my opponent erupts instantly into saying that it's a cheap rule which shouldn't exist, because it turns a game of units into a game of characters. Secondly, he suggested I was being a bit of a jerk because I had quote "no chance of winning the game if I didnt do this" and further that he had "no chance of beating me one-on-one with either the overlord or the immortals, and that forcing him to do so was, not kind of me. I disagreed with all of his suggestsions.

We got into a heated argument in which I raised my voice a few times, because I had felt like it was unfair to say my one chance at glory was cheap, when I've had to fight tooth and claw to stay in this game as Daemons to begin with...

Anyway, all this aside... should I feel bad for issuing a challenge? Should I save it for the tourney field and not against my usual opponent?

There's a simple fact here and that is your opponent was being a jerk, not you. You played within the rules and did nothing gamey at all from what I have seen. It is his own fault if he didn't anticipate what is honestly an obvious move. Don't feel bad mate.

[Lord Inquisitor]

@Lord Inquisitor

You are simply wrong IMO. Challenges benefit for the most part Squads. If you how to handle it then most big monsters without back up are toast. If you have MSS or 3++ save on the overlord you you will win that engagemet with no worries, I would even assault it if I have a larger squad. Storm Shields on chars or 3++ Save are gonna make these monsters cry when these chars are in larger squads. 10 man squad gives two re-rolls on you 3++ save. If you have Ini 1 wepaon you see to it that you makes saves first then spend the rest to kill it. A Squad can decline a challenge whilst a large monster can not.

Challenges have a lot of uses, and it's hard to make a blanket statement about them. For example, if you have a character of yours in a squad and he's about to be toasted by an enemy character, you can use a squad leader to challenge him away from your character so he can get on with whacking bozos and not have to fight a big guy. Of course, this only works if the enemy character doesn't also have a squad leader in his squad.

However, for the most part the challenge rules really benefit large MC characters. Most squads don't have a SS carrying character in them, nor MSS. Usually squads will have a veteran sergeant or similar and rarely will they be able to stand up to a MC that allocates everything against them. Unless your squad leader is able to be decked out to survive a MC walloping them, we're talking about ICs here only. And unless you have eternal warrior MCs are quite a risk as they might just Smash you to death. I suspect challenges will be the default for powerful lone characters and any squad actually prepared to take them on in a challenge will be avoided like the plague. Against most units in most armies an MC challenge is a no brainer.

Now with an IC or squad leader with a storm shield and enough bodies to get re-rolls that's a different story I don't disagree and there are a lot of nuances to the way to best con your opponent out of attacks using challenges. In WFB there are a whole host of different ways you can get an advantage through a tactical challenge. The point here is not necessarily whether player A gets an advantage from it or player B, but should challenges really be used for these roles? Challenges will be used to prevent one side getting their attacks or the other, not allowing mighty heroes to meet across the swirling melee.

[Kozbot]

To address the original post, no you shouldn't feel bad, legal tactic and all that as many in the thread have stated.

I've played a lot of editions of Fantasy and Lord Inquisitor is dead on when it comes to the role that challenges serve in the game. Various editions of Warhammer Fantasy have been derogatorily called Herohammer for a reason. My guess is that with each new codex that army will get some sick new wargear that makes challenges virtual auto-wins. Right now MSS is the be all end all of wargear when it comes to challenges. If the player brought up in the opening post had those on his overlord and the Greater Demon had punched himself to death would that have made for an enjoyable game? Or a game where it seemed random luck and not skill determined the outcome?

It's probably clear but make no mistake I hate the idea of challenges, sure they work if two Space Marine chapters are throwing down, but why would a Dark Eldar abide by the rules of chivalrous combat? And how would a Hive Tyrant even issue a challenge due to that whole lack of language thing? And finally I wonder how many posters here would feel if in the next Space Marine codex there was a piece of wargear that was grossly underpriced and amounted to "Space Marines are the bestest, you win the challenge, laugh at your opponent now."?

[The Red Pilgrim]

Ah, the internet, always full of reasonable advice when it comes to longstanding human relations. People are always moderate and not at all condemning.

If an adult "explodes"- as the original-poster put it- into an angry child, all because his friend is attempting to win the game, then yeah, my advice stands. Said person isn't worth the drama or effort of having a game. Your snide comments don't make it any less true, Glabro.

Seriously, it's a cruddy rule making a cool event into a metagame horror, but yes, it should be discussed after the game (or in the best case scenario, before) when cooler heads will prevail.

The vast majority of players I've encountered enjoy the new "challenge" system, as even this thread shows. It's one of the few times this game actually rewards fielding a melee-capable character/squad leader, in this shooting dominated meta.