Necron Abyssal Staff vrs artillery

[NealRC]

Hi all
This came up last night and we had no idea how to handle it.

The abyssal staff is a template weapon that is Str8 but uses the opponent's Ld rather than T.

The cryptek fired it at an artillery battery and it covered a weapon plus two crewmen behind. The weapon was the closest model.

Artillery pieces have no Ld value - they are just T7 Av 3 W2. The weapon wounded 1 crew member but we had no idea how to decide whether it could roll to wound the artillery piece.

- Treat the Ld '-' as Ld 0? (in which case the staff would inflict instant death on the piece)?
- Treat it as a vehicle and say it is immune to the staff?
- Assign it the Ld of the crewmen?

Also (and regardless of the above), assuming that I had done 2 wounds on the unit thanks to wounding the 2 crewmen, would I have removed the artillery piece as it was the closest model?

Cheers
Neal

[ctsteel]

From the Artillery section in the rule book (bolding mine for emphasis)

MORALE & FALL BACK MOVES
For the purposes of Morale checks and other Leadership tests, and for combat resolution, always ignore the gun models, as if they were not there.

However this isn't quite a leadership check but a stat check so can be argued as different and thus the above doesn't come into account.

The 'zero level characteristics' on p3 doesn't mention Leadership as being treated as zero = remove from play, but this is a bit of a unique one. Essentially '-' is treated as zero for purpose of referring to ability of the model, so this would allow wounding against the artillery as str 8 v ld 0. Instant death on p16 only mentions toughness, so unless the Necron wording specifically allows it (and/or I've missed something) then I'm reading it as your necron weapon damaging the artillery really easily for purpose of the To Wound dice roll, but not instant deathing it.

Also note that as it has Wounds on its profile and no AV values (and has a specific profile now) it isn't able to be treated as a vehicle (just stating this for completeness).

[Kalandros]

ID for the Staff is S8 vs LD instead of S vs T, T4 doesnt ID to the Staff, LD4 or less does.
By RAW the gun is killed due to ID - but by any common sense, it would be immune to the Abyssal Staff.

[copper.talos]

You are overcomplicating this. The staff is a template weapon that wounds on leadership. So
step 1 determine the most common LD value on the unit.
step 2 determine hits according to template weapons
step 3 Roll to wound Str 8 vs common LD value
step 4 allocate wounds according to template weapons

That's it. Abyssal staff specifically doesn't affect vehicles, but since artillery is not considered a vehicle then is not immune. And yes it deals Instant Death wounds to the artillery piece. The faq is clear on this. Although it is a bit strange and it could get faqed in the future, this is the correct way to handle this situation.

[DoctorTom]

You are overcomplicating this. The staff is a template weapon that wounds on leadership. So
step 1 determine the most common LD value on the unit.
step 2 determine hits according to template weapons
step 3 Roll to wound Str 8 vs common LD value
step 4 allocate wounds according to template weapons

That's it. Abyssal staff specifically doesn't affect vehicles, but since artillery is not considered a vehicle then is not immune. And yes it deals Instant Death wounds to the artillery piece. The faq is clear on this. Although it is a bit strange and it could get faqed in the future, this is the correct way to handle this situation.

Actually, the FAQ isn't clear at all on it. The FAQ is clear on using Leadership instead of toughness for ID with the Abyssal staff, but it doesn't say how to use it against something without a Leadership stat, and I could see GW thinking that their comments for artillery cover the situation. The answer in the FAQ you're referring to is a holdover from 5th edition (since it's not in pink), so it was written before having to deal with artillery guns that had wounds. If GW meant for the guns to remain unaffected, though, they need to make it clear in an update to the FAQ.

[red_drake]

It will prolly be FAQd to say that artillery prices use the ld of their crew, or are ignored for tests against a value they dont have
But untill that happens, copper.talos is right. Majority leadership for the roll to wound, and the gun suffers instant death because str8 is double ld0

[El_Machinae]

Well, the artillery piece isn't going to have a heart attack. But maybe the two crew members jam it up with mishandling while they crap their pants.
I'd have assigned two wounds to the crew members, but I can see how "RAW" someone would assign them to the artillery piece instead. I'd be okay with that.

[NealRC]

I think until there is a formal FAQ on this, copper.talos' explanation is the most rational. Thanks for all the input

You are overcomplicating this. The staff is a template weapon that wounds on leadership. So
step 1 determine the most common LD value on the unit.
step 2 determine hits according to template weapons
step 3 Roll to wound Str 8 vs common LD value
step 4 allocate wounds according to template weapons

That's it. Abyssal staff specifically doesn't affect vehicles, but since artillery is not considered a vehicle then is not immune. And yes it deals Instant Death wounds to the artillery piece. The faq is clear on this. Although it is a bit strange and it could get faqed in the future, this is the correct way to handle this situation.