So, in short, I reject hidden assumptions you have in your thought experiment in here. You're not coming up with anywhere near an equivalent situation.
Relentless certainly lifts the restriction on moving and firing the ordnance weapon, but it doesn't lift the restriction on remaining stationary to use the OB ability in the first place and I reject your hidden assumptions that they changed the relentless rules in 6th edition so that space marines chapter masters in terminator armour can use the OB ability on the move.
I know the rules for relentless changed in 6th, but as far as I can tell it still does not let you use an ability that requires you to remain stationary to use it.
To be able to fire the ordnance weapon in the first place you first have to be eligible to activate the OB ability.
To be able to activate the OB ability you have to be stationary. Relentless doesn't even come into the equation until after the OB ability has been activated and you are actually firing an ordnance weapon.
Last edited by Fle; 08-08-2012 at 13:08.
The weapon is.
Renlentless allow you to count as stationary even if they moved for Ordnance weapons.
If you count as stationary, you can fire your OB
You are incorrect Fle, Mojo Jojo: Oh that is so LAME. You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue.
The second part of the OB rules read :
"Calling down an OB otherwise counts as firing a ranged weapon and uses the following profile..."
I've bolded the key word. Just because the ability is otherwise treated as firing an ordnance weapon doesn't mean you can ignore the additional restrictions placed on this ability (can only be fired once, must remain stationary, can assault as normal).
The ability is summed up as :
Can only be fired once,
Must remain stationary,
Can assault as normal,
...and the 'otherwise' sentence adds the following :
aside from the above 3 exceptions, all the rules for firing an ordnance weapon apply.
Just because a relentless model counts as being stationary when firing an ordnance weapon doesn't mean that he count's as stationary when trying to activate an OB.
Last edited by Fle; 08-08-2012 at 13:42.
Relentless in 6th - Counts as stationary.
Not sorta counts as kinda stationary. Counts as exactly stationary. If it were worded like the Forgeworld Heavy Conversion Beamer, which states:
then it would be another story altogether.This weapon may not be fired if the model carrying it has moved in the same turn, regardless of the Relentless special rule or if the carrying model is a vehicle, etc.
It seems to me that you are applying the relentless rules 'too early' in the order of things. The relentless stationary bonus only applies from the step where you begin to fire your ordnance weapon, not before. The step where you check to see if you can use the OB ability in the first place occurs before this one and so relentless hasn't had an opportunity to kick in yet. If a relentless model moved through dangerous terrain and then fired his heavy bolter you wouldn't be exempt from taking the dangerous terrain test because later in the order of things you counted as being stationary. Likewise you're not exempt from the 'have you moved?' test for the OB because later in the order of things (when you make the shooting attack) you counted as being stationary.
It looks like there is some disagreement between whether the OB is an ability or just a shooting attack. If it were just a shooting attack then I think Relentless would indeed work. But the OB is quite clearly an ability which includes not just a shooting attack but a couple of other rules too. Relentless only applies to the shooting attack bit not the other rules.
Last edited by Fle; 08-08-2012 at 16:00.
@Fle you should probably play it that being relentless allow to fire it, it was worded for an edition earlyer and even then the RAW is gimmicky... and i'ts not like everyone will now use the overcosted chapter master because he can use an OB on the move...
Ah, internet trolls... Making me lose a little more faith in humanity, one post at a time...
Armies: Space marine, Chaos space marine, Tyranid, Grey Knights, High elves, Ogre Kingdom, BFG Space marine, BFG tyranids, Warmachine Khador, Protectorate of menoth, a bunch of romans that have no game purpose...
As shadekiller says, it was worded for an earlier edition. It was one where Ordnance weapons didn't have a limitation based on movement of infantry firing them.
If you're told to treat OB lilke a shooting attack then you treat it like a shooting attack. Yes, a shooting attack with special rules, but a shooting attack with special rules that other special rules that a model might have will take care of.
This is pretty heated, but I'll but in anyway.
The issue here is the interaction between specific and universal rules (or as the rule book calls basic versus advanced).
Relentless being the universal and orbital bombardment being the specific. Now the rule book states that basic rules should be followed unless the unit has an advanced rule that covers that situation. To quote page 7, "the advanced rule takes precedence". So the relentless rule applies to all circumstances except orbital bombardment which states clearly that the unit must not move to use this ability.
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.
I bolded the important synonyms for everyone.Stationary
Main Entry: immobile
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: motionless, fixed
Synonyms: anchored, at a standstill, at rest, frozen, immobilized, immotile, immovable, nailed, nailed down, pat, quiescent, rigid, riveted, rooted, stable, stagnant, static, stationary , steadfast, stiff, still, stock-still, stolid, unmovable, unmoving
Last edited by Fle; 09-08-2012 at 09:04.
its a weapon with two special rules, not being able to move in the previous movement phase and one shot. a model with Relentless with how it is stated in 6th edition now allows the model to ignore the movement requirment. It was never intended to be used this way in 5th edition but do to its current wording it is legit.
The rules stack on top of each other and only the top most applies. The USR is at the bottom with the advanced rule on top AND THE ADVANCED RULE SAYS NO MOVE AND SHOOT.
Relentless has no power over a special rule that says "no movement". If it had just said ordinance weapon then fine, relentless allows you to fire it whilst moving, but the rules of the barrage states clearly in the rules text as "no movement", so no go on that.
-- When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.
Ok then, can a player who casts "Puppet Master" on a chapter master activate the OB ability? Assume the chapter master never moved and has not used the ability yet. The rules for "Puppet Master" say treat the model as your own, so the restriction on a model only using the OB in his own shooting phase will have been met.
If you are going to apply "Relentless" because the OB is treated as a shooting attack then you would have to allow "Puppet Master" too on the same basis.
IMO "Puppet Master" doesn't let you activate abilities, and "Relentless" doesn't let you count as stationary when using abilities so neither can be applied to the OB ability.
Last edited by Fle; 09-08-2012 at 21:16.