Space Marine Commander/Bike

[Fle]

Well, you should be fore letting relentless work, because you're using an ability that they explicitly state works like firing an ordnance weapon. Because of the wording, you follow the rules for firing ordnance weapons. Anything that will remove the restriction on not moving for firing an ordnance weapon will also work on things that work like firing an ordnance weapon.

Hmm, I think I disagree with you on this, but please bare with me while I make stuff up for a moment. If we pretend that the OB ability counted as firing an assault weapon instead of an ordnance weapon , you would still be prevented from using it if you moved due to the must remain stationary clause in the OB rule (even though you can ordinarily move and fire an assault weapon). Does that make sense and what do you think?

[DoctorTom]

Hmm, I think I disagree with you on this, but please bare with me while I make stuff up for a moment. If we pretend that the OB ability counted as firing an assault weapon instead of an ordnance weapon , you would still be prevented from using it if you moved due to the must remain stationary clause in the OB rule (even though you can ordinarily move and fire an assault weapon). Does that make sense and what do you think?

The problem with that is that the wording is there for an entirely different reason now - like I said before, when the Codex was put out they didn't have rules/restrictions in the main rulebook for a non-vehicle shooting an ordnance weapon, so they had to put the wording in so that you couldn't have the Chapter Master (even in power armor, on foot) being able to move and fire the weapon. And, you didn't have Relentless working on Ordnance weapons then, so obviously some things have changed.

So, in short, I reject hidden assumptions you have in your thought experiment in here. You're not coming up with anywhere near an equivalent situation.

[Fle]

Relentless certainly lifts the restriction on moving and firing the ordnance weapon, but it doesn't lift the restriction on remaining stationary to use the OB ability in the first place and I reject your hidden assumptions that they changed the relentless rules in 6th edition so that space marines chapter masters in terminator armour can use the OB ability on the move.

[DoctorTom]

Relentless certainly lifts the restriction on moving and firing the ordnance weapon, but it doesn't lift the restriction on remaining stationary to use the OB ability in the first place and I reject your hidden assumptions that they changed the relentless rules in 6th edition so that space marines chapter masters in terminator armour can use the OB ability on the move.

I don't assume that they did it to allow a termi or Bike Captain to use OB. I just know that the rules are changed. No assumptions are being made. I note that we are told that the ability is treated like firing a weapon. I see that relentless lets the character fire that type of weapon even if he has moved. I see no assumptions there, merely a reading of the rules.

[Taureus]

Relentless certainly lifts the restriction on moving and firing the ordnance weapon, but it doesn't lift the restriction on remaining stationary to use the OB ability in the first place and I reject your hidden assumptions that they changed the relentless rules in 6th edition so that space marines chapter masters in terminator armour can use the OB ability on the move.

It is not a hidden assumption that Relentless changed in 6th. It *did* change in 6th.

And it states that the model counts as not having moved to fire heavy/salvo/ordnance weapons. So you're mistaken here.

[Fle]

I know the rules for relentless changed in 6th, but as far as I can tell it still does not let you use an ability that requires you to remain stationary to use it.

To be able to fire the ordnance weapon in the first place you first have to be eligible to activate the OB ability.

To be able to activate the OB ability you have to be stationary. Relentless doesn't even come into the equation until after the OB ability has been activated and you are actually firing an ordnance weapon.

[Azeroth133]

The weapon is.
Ordnance 1,Barrage

Renlentless allow you to count as stationary even if they moved for Ordnance weapons.
If you count as stationary, you can fire your OB

You are incorrect Fle, Mojo Jojo: Oh that is so LAME. You will PAY for your use of inappropriate dialogue.

[Fle]

The weapon is.
Ordnance 1,Barrage

Yes that may be but you are missing the additional rules for the OB ability as a whole.

The second part of the OB rules read :

"Calling down an OB otherwise counts as firing a ranged weapon and uses the following profile..."

I've bolded the key word. Just because the ability is otherwise treated as firing an ordnance weapon doesn't mean you can ignore the additional restrictions placed on this ability (can only be fired once, must remain stationary, can assault as normal).

The ability is summed up as :

Can only be fired once,
Must remain stationary,
Can assault as normal,

...and the 'otherwise' sentence adds the following :

aside from the above 3 exceptions, all the rules for firing an ordnance weapon apply.

Just because a relentless model counts as being stationary when firing an ordnance weapon doesn't mean that he count's as stationary when trying to activate an OB.

[Azeroth133]

Yes that may be but you are missing the additional rules for the OB ability as a whole.

The second part of the OB rules read :

"Calling down an OB otherwise counts as firing a ranged weapon and uses the following profile..."

I've bolded the key word. Just because the ability is otherwise treated as firing an ordnance weapon doesn't mean you can ignore the additional restrictions placed on this ability (can only be fired once, must remain stationary, can assault as normal).

The ability is summed up as :

Can only be fired once,
Must remain stationary,
Can assault as normal,

...and the 'otherwise' sentence adds the following :

aside from the above 3 exceptions, all the rules for firing an ordnance weapon apply.

Just because a relentless model counts as being stationary when firing an ordnance weapon doesn't mean that he count's as stationary when trying to activate an OB.

Renlentless interacts with the model. There is no difference between remaing stationary, and count's as stationary for purposes of useing that weapon.
Its really clear.

[Jericho]

Relentless in 6th - Counts as stationary.

Not sorta counts as kinda stationary. Counts as exactly stationary. If it were worded like the Forgeworld Heavy Conversion Beamer, which states:

This weapon may not be fired if the model carrying it has moved in the same turn, regardless of the Relentless special rule or if the carrying model is a vehicle, etc.

then it would be another story altogether.

[Fle]

It seems to me that you are applying the relentless rules 'too early' in the order of things. The relentless stationary bonus only applies from the step where you begin to fire your ordnance weapon, not before. The step where you check to see if you can use the OB ability in the first place occurs before this one and so relentless hasn't had an opportunity to kick in yet. If a relentless model moved through dangerous terrain and then fired his heavy bolter you wouldn't be exempt from taking the dangerous terrain test because later in the order of things you counted as being stationary. Likewise you're not exempt from the 'have you moved?' test for the OB because later in the order of things (when you make the shooting attack) you counted as being stationary.

It looks like there is some disagreement between whether the OB is an ability or just a shooting attack. If it were just a shooting attack then I think Relentless would indeed work. But the OB is quite clearly an ability which includes not just a shooting attack but a couple of other rules too. Relentless only applies to the shooting attack bit not the other rules.

[shadekiller]

@Fle you should probably play it that being relentless allow to fire it, it was worded for an edition earlyer and even then the RAW is gimmicky... and i'ts not like everyone will now use the overcosted chapter master because he can use an OB on the move...

[DoctorTom]

It seems to me that you are applying the relentless rules 'too early' in the order of things. The relentless stationary bonus only applies from the step where you begin to fire your ordnance weapon, not before. The step where you check to see if you can use the OB ability in the first place occurs before this one and so relentless hasn't had an opportunity to kick in yet. If a relentless model moved through dangerous terrain and then fired his heavy bolter you wouldn't be exempt from taking the dangerous terrain test because later in the order of things you counted as being stationary. Likewise you're not exempt from the 'have you moved?' test for the OB because later in the order of things (when you make the shooting attack) you counted as being stationary.

It looks like there is some disagreement between whether the OB is an ability or just a shooting attack. If it were just a shooting attack then I think Relentless would indeed work. But the OB is quite clearly an ability which includes not just a shooting attack but a couple of other rules too. Relentless only applies to the shooting attack bit not the other rules.

Actually, the relentless would still apply even with the way you're trying to read it. He still counts as stationary when you check relentless. Also, there is no specified order for doing this checking - you don't check before or after looking at the profile and determining effect of special rules - it's all done at that same time.

As shadekiller says, it was worded for an earlier edition. It was one where Ordnance weapons didn't have a limitation based on movement of infantry firing them.

If you're told to treat OB lilke a shooting attack then you treat it like a shooting attack. Yes, a shooting attack with special rules, but a shooting attack with special rules that other special rules that a model might have will take care of.

[nlive]

This is pretty heated, but I'll but in anyway.

The issue here is the interaction between specific and universal rules (or as the rule book calls basic versus advanced).

Relentless being the universal and orbital bombardment being the specific. Now the rule book states that basic rules should be followed unless the unit has an advanced rule that covers that situation. To quote page 7, "the advanced rule takes precedence". So the relentless rule applies to all circumstances except orbital bombardment which states clearly that the unit must not move to use this ability.

--
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.

[Taureus]

This is pretty heated, but I'll but in anyway.

The issue here is the interaction between specific and universal rules (or as the rule book calls basic versus advanced).

Relentless being the universal and orbital bombardment being the specific. Now the rule book states that basic rules should be followed unless the unit has an advanced rule that covers that situation. To quote page 7, "the advanced rule takes precedence". So the relentless rule applies to all circumstances except orbital bombardment which states clearly that the unit must not move to use this ability.

--
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.

Relentless counts the model as being stationary to fire. Is this really that hard to understand?

Stationary
Main Entry: immobile
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: motionless, fixed
Synonyms: anchored, at a standstill, at rest, frozen, immobilized, immotile, immovable, nailed, nailed down, pat, quiescent, rigid, riveted, rooted, stable, stagnant, static, stationary , steadfast, stiff, still, stock-still, stolid, unmovable, unmoving

I bolded the important synonyms for everyone.

[Fle]

If you're told to treat OB lilke a shooting attack then you treat it like a shooting attack. Yes, a shooting attack with special rules, but a shooting attack with special rules that other special rules that a model might have will take care of.

You're told to otherwise treat OB as a shooting attack. That is, aside from the bit that isn't treated as a shooting attack (the cannot move, fire only once, can assault as normal), the OB is otherwise counted as a shooting attack.

[Azeroth133]

its a weapon with two special rules, not being able to move in the previous movement phase and one shot. a model with Relentless with how it is stated in 6th edition now allows the model to ignore the movement requirment. It was never intended to be used this way in 5th edition but do to its current wording it is legit.

[nlive]

its a weapon with two special rules, not being able to move in the previous movement phase and one shot. a model with Relentless with how it is stated in 6th edition now allows the model to ignore the movement requirment. It was never intended to be used this way in 5th edition but do to its current wording it is legit.

I like the way the argument is being run. If there was a USR stating you can not move and fire and a 5th Ed advanced rule staying you can, then you would be arguing that you can move and fire. In this case its a USR stating you can but the advanced rule stating you can not.

The rules stack on top of each other and only the top most applies. The USR is at the bottom with the advanced rule on top AND THE ADVANCED RULE SAYS NO MOVE AND SHOOT.

Relentless has no power over a special rule that says "no movement". If it had just said ordinance weapon then fine, relentless allows you to fire it whilst moving, but the rules of the barrage states clearly in the rules text as "no movement", so no go on that.

-- When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.

[DoctorTom]

I like the way the argument is being run. If there was a USR stating you can not move and fire and a 5th Ed advanced rule staying you can, then you would be arguing that you can move and fire. In this case its a USR stating you can but the advanced rule stating you can not.

The rules stack on top of each other and only the top most applies. The USR is at the bottom with the advanced rule on top AND THE ADVANCED RULE SAYS NO MOVE AND SHOOT.

Relentless has no power over a special rule that says "no movement". If it had just said ordinance weapon then fine, relentless allows you to fire it whilst moving, but the rules of the barrage states clearly in the rules text as "no movement", so no go on that.

-- When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout.

This isn't a general vs. advanced - this is a rulebook with a rule that's covered by another rule. The rule for OB does not specifically state that models do not get to use Relentless against it. As it is, we just have a rule that states no movement. Relentless says you count as not moving even if you move. It's not a conflict.

[Fle]

Ok then, can a player who casts "Puppet Master" on a chapter master activate the OB ability? Assume the chapter master never moved and has not used the ability yet. The rules for "Puppet Master" say treat the model as your own, so the restriction on a model only using the OB in his own shooting phase will have been met.

If you are going to apply "Relentless" because the OB is treated as a shooting attack then you would have to allow "Puppet Master" too on the same basis.

IMO "Puppet Master" doesn't let you activate abilities, and "Relentless" doesn't let you count as stationary when using abilities so neither can be applied to the OB ability.