Battlefleet Lists

[horizon]

Yeah, the Dominion is easier to use on its own. Lances are also perfectly support weapon as opposed to the batteries which must close to gain effect.

[Spellfire]

Cheers for the suggestions...I'm thinking of taking 2 pairs of Dictator/Gothics, the idea being that the Gothic provides close support with it's lances to the Dictator which is churning out Ordnance.

Part of me still thinks though...if a threat is close enough to the pair for the Gothic to shoot at (30cm), then a Dominator may be just as viable (30cm Str 12 WBs + Nova Cannon), although at 10 points more. And if squadroned with the Dictator, then you're actually shooting with a combined Str 18 WBs (ideally). Are there any articles talking about this sort of thing and all the different variations and their uses? I seem to remember a site call Dysartes, but that seems to have vanished.

[horizon]

The Gothic + Dominator is a perfect couple without the need to squadron. Indeed 12 batteries from the Dominator in favourable position and the Gothic can go easily abeam with its lances. And on the way in the NC softens up. Torps harass as well.


I rather not squadron carriers with gunships. Though gunships and carriers need to support eachother.

[Spellfire]

Yeah I've just realised that a Squadron can only take one special order right? So if you need to Reload Ordnance for the Carrier, then the Gunship probably won't benefit.

[sunnyside]

Yeah I've just realised that a Squadron can only take one special order right? So if you need to Reload Ordnance for the Carrier, then the Gunship probably won't benefit.

More importantly if you brace one you have to brace them all. That can be a huge pain and your opponent will be looking to exploit it. Forming squadrons can provide some real advantages, but it isn't something I do lightly.

[andrewchristlieb]

Yes BFI is the great equalizer with squadrons, thats why I prefer a gothic/ dominator or gothic/ tyrant over a lunar/ lunar. With the gothic you dont have to squadron them and i will usually only squadron them if one of the ships ends up with very poor leadership. The only real upside to lunars is if one is destroyed you still have some weapons and lances, if a gothic or it partner is destroyed you lose all of your weapons or lances for that group.

Idealy for a rounded IN imo you should have a firm core of dedicated carriers (in the typical 1500 this will be about 8-12 launch bays) then a "line" of gunships to protect the carriers and then a small number of speedy ships to fill gaps when needed and take care of any flanking attacks or pursue fleeing ships. Your gunships should have a good mix of lance and weapons batteries to be able to handle multiple races and if your taking novas take at least two but no more than three for an all comers list.

Your cruiser selection will provide the basis of of your selection for everything else, a strong group of gunships will probably want to bring a carrier battleship or a couple carrier battle/grand cruisers whereas a dictator or two will lean you more in the direction of heavy gunships (overlord, armageddon, retribution, etc...). Once your capitols are selected you can focus on filling the gaps, need more torpedoes? Add some cobras or a torp dauntless (maybe some falchions). Low on lances? Bring some firestorms or an endurance or lance dauntless. Swords, falchions, and endeavours can bring a lot of firepower into play for their size if you feel your lacking there. Lastly if you feel you need a defiant for more launch, start over you screwed up .

[horizon]

Yes, the Defiant is losing before beginning.
I will only squadron within my Tau fleet if a Protector would end up with leadership 6. Reloading is essential to such vessels. Gunships have much less need to squadron.

If you have a strong torpedo presence 4-8 launch bays can work well enough within the IN fleet.

[sunnyside]

Your gunships should have a good mix of lance and weapons batteries to be able to handle multiple races and if your taking novas take at least two but no more than three for an all comers list.

Obviously sometimes you're going to need to be able to deal with the possibilities of Necrons, Eldar, and ordinance spam. For the IN fleet that means having lances, weapon batteries, and at least 8 launch bays if you want to have an all comers list as you indicate.

But what threat demands torpedos?

[horizon]

Everything! Torpedoes are always useful. Even my chaos fleet has more torps then one of my in opponents. Six infidels, desolator and above 1500 a repulsive to it.

[Spellfire]

I would have thought that torps would be needed against a Chaos fleet in order to break up their gunline, especially since they have guns to the fore and generally longer range - which then gives the ImpNavy fleet time to get into their own range and deliver the broadsides. Plus I love the idea of a Squadron or two of Cobras flanking round the sides and rear and unleashing a load of torps.

[sunnyside]

I would have thought that torps would be needed against a Chaos fleet in order to break up their gunline, especially since they have guns to the fore and generally longer range - which then gives the ImpNavy fleet time to get into their own range and deliver the broadsides. Plus I love the idea of a Squadron or two of Cobras flanking round the sides and rear and unleashing a load of torps.

I remember reading something like that in one of the tactics articles GW has or had up.

However it seems people think those are pretty idiotic. I can see the utility of torps in their "shotgun" capacity, they can certainly put up some hits.

However since the IN tends to have fewer launch bays than the opposition it's pretty easy to clear any torps that you can't easily evade with fighters (one fighter clears an entire wave of torps).

Chaos has the options of boarding torps (which can maneuver) and taking a lot of launch bays, so that's a different story potentially.

Regarding all comers lists, are people just saying torps should be in there because they're generally good, as opposed to being needed in some kind of necron/eldar dynamic.

[horizon]

Synergy. You keep forgetting synergy.
A combined torpedo + bomber attack is a headache to any captain. This because he needs to decide against which attack he rolls his turrets.

Torpedoes bypass shields.

Easy example:
One Lance Dauntless can ever only take down 3 shields against a Despoiler Battleship. Never ever scracth it.
One Torpedeo Dauntless can inflict 6 damage points to a Despoiler as a max. And at least one torpedo will get a chance to roll vs armour.

[sunnyside]

Synergy. You keep forgetting synergy.
A combined torpedo + bomber attack is a headache to any captain. This because he needs to decide against which attack he rolls his turrets.

Torpedoes bypass shields.

Easy example:
One Lance Dauntless can ever only take down 3 shields against a Despoiler Battleship. Never ever scracth it.
One Torpedeo Dauntless can inflict 6 damage points to a Despoiler as a max. And at least one torpedo will get a chance to roll vs armour.

I'm not sure we're even disagreeing. There is certainly a lot of synergy between torps and attack craft. Both because of the turret rules, but also because torps are trivially stopped by CAP so you generally need some AC in play in order to effectively use them (though little one torp escorts can be helpful in clearing a path).

In the context of this thread I'm just saying:

#1 There isn't a case where you NEED torps the way you can need other types of weapons. I.e. I can't think of a case where you could say if you don't have torps against X you're just dead. Wheras you pretty much need to get on the gunnary table to fight eldar and weapons that don't roll against armor to fight Necrons.

#2 standard torps are generally innefective at long range.

[andrewchristlieb]

Your right i only stated the max of three novas in a 1500 because any more and A: its cheesy B: its against the fluff and C: you run the risk of being cought with your pants down in a match with heavy terrain.

[horizon]

hm. No. vs Necrons weapon batteries are very important, on same level as any other opponent.
Torps at long range is not entirely useless.

[andrewchristlieb]

Long range torps used correctly force your opponet to either avoid them, clear them, or take hits.

If they choose to avoid them you will have, if you planned correctly , either denied a strategic foothold (planet especially) or your forcing them into an area where you can more easily bring your guns to bear (this is very important for IN fleets dealing with faster or longer ranged opponents).

If they choose to clear the torps you have effectivly eliminated one bomber squadron per torp marker in exchange for something you otherwise were not going to use.

If they take the hits yay!

[sunnyside]

hm. No. vs Necrons weapon batteries are very important, on same level as any other opponent.

Ok, this thread is for a newcomer to the game. While batteries have their place in the battle, please do not try and a give them the impression that they'll do fine with a fleet of torpedo Tyrants, an emperor, and some swords against a proper Necron fleet.

Torps at long range is not entirely useless.

Heh. I guess with that phrasing I can't argue.

Long range torps used correctly force your opponet to either avoid them, clear them,

While you're right, those things are not particularily demanding, especially in the FAQ2010 environment where you can no longer squadron up to send out a big picket fence for them to dodge.

Also when it comes to clearing them they can also use direct fire weapons on them that would otherwise be unused due to not being able to get LOS or range on an opposing ship, as is much more common at long range.

And you're going to have to reload all of those things in order to be able to use them later, which can be a pain. At least you don't have the business of running out anymore though.

[horizon]

Reloading, ah well, your opponent can fail to. Plus many torps will force an opponent to launch less bombers. Good, right?

Having only batteries vs Necrons will be dodgy, but having only lances won't work either.
Oh, and do not believe the stories you might hear but against Necrons: fire batteries before lances as well. Psychology.

[andrewchristlieb]

And were back to the begining here, an all commers list should have a good mix of lance and gunnery chart weapons along with enough ordnance to protect yourself under normal circumstances. For IN i would say 2-3 nova if you even want to take them.

Most all of te fleets follow the same basic approach with slight variations due to their particular qwerks, and it is possible to take a playable (although maybe not fluffy) 1500 list with no torpedoes or novas for IN. Just throwing that out there.

[Jakeman214]

Okay, I'm going to use this thread as I feel it is appropriate.

I have a question regarding the use of the Additional Ships Compendium with FAQ 2010 rules. We play with FAQ2010 rules, but we allow the use of ships out of this Additional Ships Compendium. Now I play Imperial Navy, Cadian Reserve Bastion Fleet rules out of Armada, as this allows me to use my pair of Murders and Executor Grand Cruiser fairly. My friend that I play against often also runs Imperial Navy, but liberally uses ships out of this thing. Looking over it, it gives the Imperial Navy access to a lot of ships that even out the cons of playing Imperial Navy. As the FAQ2010 came with added Fleet Lists such as Battlefleet Bakka, Ork Clanz and such, I wonder which takes precedence? Does the FAQ2010 added Fleet Lists supersede the Additional Ship Compendium?

He usually runs very carrier and lance heavy, by (ab)using Enforcer Light Cruisers and Jovian Battlecruisers. A typical 3000pt list for him is as follows.

Invincible Fast Battleship
Armageddon Battlecruiser
Armageddon Battlecruiser
Jovian Battlecruiser
Jovian Battlecruiser
Jovian Battlecruiser
Dominator Cruiser
Dominator Cruiser
Dauntless Light Cruiser
Dauntless Light Cruiser
Dauntless Light Cruiser
Enforcer Light Cruiser
Enforcer Light Cruiser
Enforcer Light Cruiser
Enforcer Light Cruiser
Enforcer Light Cruiser
Enforcer Light Cruiser

As a reference, I did beat him in a straight up clash no terrain, but only just, due to the suicide of all his Enforcer's into my Gunline and plasma drive overloads on nearly every single one of them taking out 4 crippled IN cruisers and 4 full strength cruisers.