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Thread: Transports

  1. #21

    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by IcedCrow View Post
    Because since time immemorial, assault armies used them to streak across the table and be on you in the next turn assaulting and now they can't.
    Really ? Non open topped/assault ramp transports have always been too slow to assault from. I've always used (and seen them used) as speed boosts to get into rapid fire or melta range

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaktathi
    ....they just nerfed the crap out of the metal boxes.
    This has been done to death in various other threads, but strongly disagree. I think that some people are so desperate for a nerf to vehicles and a return to infantry lists, that they overlook the positives for vehicles, while disregarding the nerfs to infantry that 6th brought.

  2. #22
    Chapter Master Aluinn's Avatar
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    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Klobb_Maniac View Post
    I want to point out that I think GW has been trying to get Rhinos and things to stop being viable *at all* for assault, and they jsut finally had to drop the hammer this edition to do that. In 5th they made it so *even turning the vehicle* was enough to make it so the contents couldn't charge. I don't remember 4th enough to be sure this was a change, but I think it was...

    Either way, it makes sense that non-assault vehicles shouldn't be used for it. Eldar are the ones most hurt by this and I think that'll be remedied somehow. If nothing else, DE mitigates this to an extent. (stealing fellow transports on the first turn, etc..)
    I think the "no assaulting" (unless it's an assault/open-topped vehicle of course) provision is possibly meant to counteract the additional movement that almost all vehicles have now, and also to increase the amount of time that infantry have to spend on the board. This doesn't necessarily mean that GW want to nerf assaults or to buff shooting in a general sense--though it seems they did slightly--but it may be to say that they found it a problem that games would regularly pass in 5th where models ostensibly in the army were either not on the board at all, at any point in the game, or were there (in the case of a lot of assault units) for around 2 turns. At some point, in extremis, this is going to make people start to question why they're spending lots of money and time on infantry models.

    Then there is the general principle that, in every edition save 5th, 40K has always been primarily an infantry-focused game and transports, as others have said, have been just that: Ways to get from point A to point B, not ways to protect units from shooting all around (though they are of course meant to protect against "small arms" fire, and still do, unless it's Gauss or pulse rifles, or they're AV10, which is a small step above your average car or truck and, in that case, a high-powered rifle/40K equivalent should be able to damage them).

    Anyway, it's there in the name: Transport. Rhinos for example are still effective ways to get Tac squads and the like into the mid-field where they're going to be able to maximize the impact their most useful weapons (bolters and plasma, this edition) as well as fight over the most highly-contested objectives. IFV-type transports (i.e. those with heavy weapon turrets, more or less) may seem horribly hurt, but the truth is that lot of them were a decent value just for their mobile shooting anyway. This was one of the main problems with Razorbacks being way too good in 5th (and if you don't believe me, the prevalence of Razorspam lists in any tournament, with any codex that could take them, is probably sufficient evidence): If they had been horribly inefficient at shooting but could act as a de-facto fast, scoring unit with AV11, that would have been one thing, and if their cargo had had to disembark to accomplish anything, it would have been fine for them to be good at shooting for their cost, but the combination of both was game-breaking in the sense that it colored the competitive meta very, very heavily. In 6th, you either take the up-gunned version for the guns, or you don't take it. Fortunately, Chimeras and Razorbacks (and to a lesser extent Raiders, Venoms, and Wave Serpents--though Wave Serpents are also paying for superior armor to the extent that they're basically a shooting tank as much as a transport) are still really decent deals for their guns and even if transport capability is just a minor bonus, I think they're still worth it. Improved ability to keep on shooting even when being subjected to enemy shooting is much more a boon to them than it is to a Rhino, obviously.

    For example if you compare the cost of a twin-linked lascannon Razorback to a Predator with twin-linked lascannons, you're saving quite a lot of points and the transport capacity is just a cherry on top (I know it also has much worse armor, but still, it is much cheaper). This is not to say that 6th Ed. Razorbacks are awesome, but they're roughly as awesome as (non-BA) Predators, which is to say they have their place but are nothing to write home about. I think Chimeras fair even better because their weapons became more useful (S6 kinda sucked against vehicles in 5th, and is now solid), and the various Skimmer transports benefit from a "permanent" (unless they're immobilized ) 5+ cover save to compensate for their relative expensiveness, and the fast ones can fire all weapons at full BS while moving short distances and gaining said save.

    (Before any Eldar or Tau player jumps on me for this, I do think your transports are still overcosted; just not as much as some people may.)

    TL;DR: Non-gunned-up transports, due to being faster, remain effective ways to get squads to the middle of the board faster than they would be able to without transport, and probably with less damage taken; if the Rhino 'splodes immediately after its job is done, it's still done, and if people ignore an empty Rhino it can still bounce around doing irritating things. The transports with numerous/effective heavy weapons should be looked at bargain FA/HS choices that don't take up a slot first and foremost, and as transports second, and with this view they will seem less disappointing.
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  3. #23
    Chapter Master Chem-Dog's Avatar
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    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by Azazel View Post
    • In the mission 'The Relic' you could Embark on a Transport, move it 6" in shooting phase as a Turbo Boost to get more distance
    If I remember right the Relic itself isn't allowed to travel more than 6" a turn.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aluinn View Post
    I think the "no assaulting" (unless it's an assault/open-topped vehicle of course) provision is possibly meant to counteract the additional movement that almost all vehicles have now, and also to increase the amount of time that infantry have to spend on the board. This doesn't necessarily mean that GW want to nerf assaults or to buff shooting in a general sense--though it seems they did slightly--but it may be to say that they found it a problem that games would regularly pass in 5th where models ostensibly in the army were either not on the board at all, at any point in the game, or were there (in the case of a lot of assault units) for around 2 turns. At some point, in extremis, this is going to make people start to question why they're spending lots of money and time on infantry models.

    Then there is the general principle that, in every edition save 5th, 40K has always been primarily an infantry-focused game and transports, as others have said, have been just that: Ways to get from point A to point B, not ways to protect units from shooting all around (though they are of course meant to protect against "small arms" fire, and still do, unless it's Gauss or pulse rifles, or they're AV10, which is a small step above your average car or truck and, in that case, a high-powered rifle/40K equivalent should be able to damage them).

    Anyway, it's there in the name: Transport. Rhinos for example are still effective ways to get Tac squads and the like into the mid-field where they're going to be able to maximize the impact their most useful weapons (bolters and plasma, this edition) as well as fight over the most highly-contested objectives. IFV-type transports (i.e. those with heavy weapon turrets, more or less) may seem horribly hurt, but the truth is that lot of them were a decent value just for their mobile shooting anyway. This was one of the main problems with Razorbacks being way too good in 5th (and if you don't believe me, the prevalence of Razorspam lists in any tournament, with any codex that could take them, is probably sufficient evidence): If they had been horribly inefficient at shooting but could act as a de-facto fast, scoring unit with AV11, that would have been one thing, and if their cargo had had to disembark to accomplish anything, it would have been fine for them to be good at shooting for their cost, but the combination of both was game-breaking in the sense that it colored the competitive meta very, very heavily. In 6th, you either take the up-gunned version for the guns, or you don't take it. Fortunately, Chimeras and Razorbacks (and to a lesser extent Raiders, Venoms, and Wave Serpents--though Wave Serpents are also paying for superior armor to the extent that they're basically a shooting tank as much as a transport) are still really decent deals for their guns and even if transport capability is just a minor bonus, I think they're still worth it. Improved ability to keep on shooting even when being subjected to enemy shooting is much more a boon to them than it is to a Rhino, obviously.

    For example if you compare the cost of a twin-linked lascannon Razorback to a Predator with twin-linked lascannons, you're saving quite a lot of points and the transport capacity is just a cherry on top (I know it also has much worse armor, but still, it is much cheaper). This is not to say that 6th Ed. Razorbacks are awesome, but they're roughly as awesome as (non-BA) Predators, which is to say they have their place but are nothing to write home about. I think Chimeras fair even better because their weapons became more useful (S6 kinda sucked against vehicles in 5th, and is now solid), and the various Skimmer transports benefit from a "permanent" (unless they're immobilized ) 5+ cover save to compensate for their relative expensiveness, and the fast ones can fire all weapons at full BS while moving short distances and gaining said save.

    (Before any Eldar or Tau player jumps on me for this, I do think your transports are still overcosted; just not as much as some people may.)

    TL;DR: Non-gunned-up transports, due to being faster, remain effective ways to get squads to the middle of the board faster than they would be able to without transport, and probably with less damage taken; if the Rhino 'splodes immediately after its job is done, it's still done, and if people ignore an empty Rhino it can still bounce around doing irritating things. The transports with numerous/effective heavy weapons should be looked at bargain FA/HS choices that don't take up a slot first and foremost, and as transports second, and with this view they will seem less disappointing.
    All I will say is that you can't blame the razorback for all of 5th. Many books could take razor msu lists but none did until after IG came out. 5th Ed's IG book changed the game so immensely in favor of vehicles that I don't know if the game has ever so abruptly shifted meta gears. That is where the MELTA came from, and in turn the light vehicle spam.


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  5. #25
    Chapter Master Vaktathi's Avatar
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    Re: Transports

    That's because IG were the 2nd 5E book out 9 months into the edition...and the armies that ran razorback spam effectively, being Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights, didn't come out until after that...

    You can blame the Melta spam however on the very first book that came out for 5E, Codex: Space Marines, where suddenly every SM army that anyone ran was a Vulkan He'Stan list packing TH/SS termi's and a ton of meltaguns because they got to reroll everything for basically a 25pt premium on the entire army. You also started seeing the first inklings of Razorspam there, but until Grey Hunters, BA Assault Marines, and GK's (in other words, SM+1 units) the infantry didn't support it as well.


    so, methinks there's a bit more to that there...
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  6. #26
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    I'm sure the Imperial Guard did nothing to shift the meta game toward vehicles. You're right. :\


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  7. #27
    Chapter Master Vaktathi's Avatar
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    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by Chapters Unwritten View Post
    I'm sure the Imperial Guard did nothing to shift the meta game toward vehicles. You're right. :\


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    I think it was fairly obvious that my point was that IG were just another expression of the same constant, not a cause, you're free to read that however you want but IG didn't create the Mech&Melta Meta. Melta was already popular, and the razorback and other transport spam would have occurred regardless and already was occurring. Rhinos and meltas were already default takes for C:SM and C:CSM armies by the time IG came out, razorback spam came later when they dropped the attempts at discouraging minimum sized marine squads.

    IG were just another example of the same thing that was already occurring, I think it would be rather difficult to argue otherwise. Even before IG were redone, Mech and Melta had already set in. I know I had already mechanized and melta'd up my Chaos Space Marine army before IG came out.
    Last edited by Vaktathi; 05-08-2012 at 01:19.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Transports

    then GW will do a good job on 7th;
    i have been into GW for 25 years. i am not sure they have ever done what i would consider a good job. if builders came to my house and did work as slipshod as i am used to seeing from games workshop i would both not pay and demand a re-build.

    the founders of warhammer created a great fantasy universe in the 80's. they created a couple of great games and a fantastic magazine.
    in the 90's they made all the games playable and became professional enough that the comapany didnt go bust.

    since the mid-90's GW has been on a mad charge to make as much money as possible and the product has suffered as a result. the models are nice, but the game systems just get shoddier and shoddier.

    i compare this with bloodbowl. GW pretty much washed it's hands of this game. and yet it still has a strong following. i think this is because the rules are constantly refined rather than changed to sell the newest models

  9. #29
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    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by Chem-Dog View Post
    If I remember right the Relic itself isn't allowed to travel more than 6" a turn.
    The Relic cannot move more than 6" in any Phase.

  10. #30

    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by djhowitzer View Post
    i have been into GW for 25 years. i am not sure they have ever done what i would consider a good job. if builders came to my house and did work as slipshod as i am used to seeing from games workshop i would both not pay and demand a re-build.

    the founders of warhammer created a great fantasy universe in the 80's. they created a couple of great games and a fantastic magazine.
    in the 90's they made all the games playable and became professional enough that the comapany didnt go bust.

    since the mid-90's GW has been on a mad charge to make as much money as possible and the product has suffered as a result. the models are nice, but the game systems just get shoddier and shoddier.

    i compare this with bloodbowl. GW pretty much washed it's hands of this game. and yet it still has a strong following. i think this is because the rules are constantly refined rather than changed to sell the newest models
    I disgree. its not about a change regarding making money; its a change in audience, and maybe even a change in the game genre.
    40k was a skirmish game that even had a GM; now, take 100 40k players, and ask them to play Space Hulk; maybe, MAYBE 10 of them will be interested. simply put, 40k has become a wargame now, not a miniatures game. a wargame with great fluff, that some people play uncompetitive scenarios with; but still a wargame. i meet more and more people that play 40k and have no interest whatsoever in rpgs, per se.

    i understand that its different, and thats because there is a great chasm between the "RPG players crowd" and the "competitive wargaming crowd". many people feel uneasy. i just hope that in time, the two crowds will start understand their differences and respect each other rather than competitive players saying "oldschool fluff players suck" and oldschool fluff players saying "competitive players are not playing the right way". each has a right to have fun, long as he doesnt hurt others.
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  11. #31
    Chapter Master Chem-Dog's Avatar
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    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by Azazel View Post
    The Relic cannot move more than 6" in any Phase.
    Oooh, nice. All I could remember is that the relic could make aircraft crash
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  12. #32
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    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by duffybear1988 View Post
    GW seem to want everyone to pack up their transports and buy bikes instead (probably because they made a heap of shiny dosh on the tanks, and now the bikes need selling).

    I recommend dumping the transport tanks and taking shooty bike squads backed up by a bike command squad loaded up for combat. Oh and don't forget to throw in the 3 vindicators for nice AP2 death. If you have extra points then sprinkle in th/ss terminators for taste.

    Looks like that will be the normal list in my area anyway.
    So your response to GW allegedly attempting to manipulate you into drastically altering your force is.....to do exactly what you assert they want you to? Crikey it's no wonder they think they can get away with perpetual price hikes and drastic meta-shifts in order to drive extra sales.

  13. #33
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    Re: Transports

    When GW made transports cheaper and better in 5th people complained that they were after our money and wanted us to buy a transport for every squad.

    Now they're doing the opposite and people are still complaining?


    I for one am happy about the change, now I won't have to buy a mandatory transport for every unit.
    This means the cost of future armies have been lowered quite a bit.
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  14. #34
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    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by Freakiq View Post
    When GW nd better in 5th people complained that they were after our money and wanted us to buy a transport for every squad.

    Now they're doing the opposite and people are still complaining?
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  15. #35
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    Re: Transports

    Darn, I am in 6th edition and still want to buy a transport for all the troops I have.
    I am luck that I do not have the points for that in a game and not the money for it in real live.

  16. #36
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    Re: Transports

    Quote Originally Posted by Freakiq View Post
    When GW made transports cheaper and better in 5th people complained that they were after our money and wanted us to buy a transport for every squad.

    Now they're doing the opposite and people are still complaining?


    I for one am happy about the change, now I won't have to buy a mandatory transport for every unit.
    This means the cost of future armies have been lowered quite a bit.
    Yes, exactly. Kinda like how people have moaned for years about White Dwarf not having new units/ rules in it, but then also moaning because they have to now carry around a couple of WD's to play Sisters.

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