Would Ad-Mech paint Titans in Camoflage patterns?

[TheDungen]

as i said earlier, once it shoots or moves the dust will be hitting the upper atmospehere in a few seconds. You have to think bigger, maybe you can hide them from the people on the surface but you can make them harder to spot from orbit and thus less susceptible to orbital fire. which considering the size of titans is otherwise a real danger.

[Col. Tartleton]

100+ foot robot.
Death rays.
Force Field.

No Camo.

I think Olive Drab, Feldgrau, or Khaki vs Heraldic is reasonable depending on the look you want, but not camouflage.

Dazzle would be interesting but ineffective. Camouflage is only effective at disrupting the human eye. It's not going to work against a targeting system.

[Chem-Dog]

On the whole I'd agree with Lord-Caerolion, Camouflage on a titan would be pointless, given the noise one generates when it moves (let alone starts shooting) the power signatures of it's engines, void fields, powered up weapon systems and any active auspex systems are likely to render concealing camo pointless at the kind of ranges where their bulk doesn't make them obvious.

However it's been discussed before that a titan is likely to be quite warm which probably means condensation (at least in an environment fairly similar to the one we all thrive in), so given the amount of dust that a titan of any size is likely to kick up performing virtually any manoeuvre, let alone when the weapons start doing their business, I could see a Titan becoming very quickly coated in an amalgam of dust, soot and vaporised heretic particles. Not deliberately camouflaged, but quickly shrouded in the fog of war.

If memory serves the (not unreasonable I think) rationale given was that it was a waste of time trying to camouflage them against ground forces, but that camouflaging the carapace could be effective against orbital or high altitude sensors.

Again I think it'd be a largely pointless exercise, if the titan's active it's readable on any number of different types of radiation, if it's in combat even more so. The raw power of a titan is likely to be it's best disguise from orbital attention, as soon as it starts shooting (or being shot at) the air around it would be lousy with electromagnetic interference that would probably fox most auspex arrays. At sub orbital levels, the dust cloud would be as obscuring.
I'm not sure how it stands now, but I think even a Titan of the Imperium would likely be too fast for any orbital weaponry to be relied upon without a specific "lock" and I can't imagine the Machine cult of Mars wouldn't have countermeasures for such an eventuality.

Dazzle camouflage doesn't hide you, it's to make it difficult to tell what you're doing.

Which is all well and good at significant range, but I think it'll be of limited use when the basic shape is bipedal humanoid, most of the factions in 40K understand the shape quite well enough.

On that note: perhaps they should paint the Titans with optical illusions of the "Ow, my brain!" variety.

Chaos Titans do this all the time!

[ManOfRust]

100+ foot robot.
Death rays.
Force Field.
CHAINSAW FINGERS

No Camo.

I think Olive Drab, Feldgrau, or Khaki vs Heraldic is reasonable depending on the look you want, but not camouflage.

Dazzle would be interesting but ineffective. Camouflage is only effective at disrupting the human eye. It's not going to work against a targeting system.

Counter measures exist for modern targeting systems and I'm pretty sure the far-flung future has electronic counter measures designed to work just fine against any number of physics spectra (Eldar sure as hell do). Even if he has a hundred other ways to spot you, if your opponent is still going to use an optic of some sort to look at you it makes sense not to give him an obvious target to pick out.

Titans on the move are too fast for super-orbital weapons and are shielded to defend against indirect artillery and carpet bombing. Battlefield anti-armour is only effective in very large volumes, which is suicidal to employ against an enemy designed to obliterate concentrations of force, smaller weapons barely register at all. Most effective are highly mobile, precision targeted ordinance or overwhelming firepower over the entire shield surface. Precision targeting inevitably means LoS (for some poor spotter at least) or a cruise missile (which are tricky to syncronise and also work best with an optical spotter).

Counter to this and due to the nature of the setting it is also the case that, however unlikely it would logically seem to be, Titans do end up engaged in combat where shields are in-effective and targeting is by eye (or the nearest bionic equivalent). Even more bizarrely, they even forgo fuller armament for the option of hitting each other with their massive hydraulic limbs. In this final condition, having an enormous heraldic device on your thickest armour plate to draw his attacks is arguably going to be more effective than winterfeld212 liberally applied.

I guess a Warhound would gain a whole lot more from camouflage than a Warlord and I think that any Techpriest would be positively offended at the thought of trying to disguise something as ludicrously powerful as an Emperor Titan.

[baphomael]

100+ foot robot.
Death rays.
Force Field.

No Camo.

I think Olive Drab, Feldgrau, or Khaki vs Heraldic is reasonable depending on the look you want, but not camouflage.

Dazzle would be interesting but ineffective. Camouflage is only effective at disrupting the human eye. It's not going to work against a targeting system.

Also, wasn't dazzle camo designed to disrupt the targeting of ships, by making it difficult to judge speed and course? I'm not sure that'd work particularly well for a titan, let alone with sophisticated targeting technologies.

[daveNYC]

I'd disagree about Titans being to fast for orbital weapons. Warhounds sure, but an Imperator isn't a speed demon, and more importantly it steers like a cow. They're also valuable enough that an enemy would be willing to glass the county they're in in order to take it out. Whether an Imperator would actually be deployed in a situation where the enemy had enough control over the orbital space to be able to line up a bombardment is unlikely though.

[agurus1]

Warhound's I could see getting camo, especially the way that they are depicted in Dan Abnett's titanicus as ambush predators. Also they will find it easer to hide behind large buildings and so on

[MajorWesJanson]

I'd disagree about Titans being to fast for orbital weapons. Warhounds sure, but an Imperator isn't a speed demon, and more importantly it steers like a cow. They're also valuable enough that an enemy would be willing to glass the county they're in in order to take it out. Whether an Imperator would actually be deployed in a situation where the enemy had enough control over the orbital space to be able to line up a bombardment is unlikely though.

If a ship drops into low orbit to hit an Emperor, the Emperor has the capability to shoot back.

[daveNYC]

If a ship drops into low orbit to hit an Emperor, the Emperor has the capability to shoot back.

True, but unless they're firing on a frigate the odds are seriously stacked against the Titan. Do they even have the ability to elevate their guns close to 90 degrees?

[Sai-Lauren]

as i said earlier, once it shoots or moves the dust will be hitting the upper atmospehere in a few seconds. You have to think bigger, maybe you can hide them from the people on the surface but you can make them harder to spot from orbit and thus less susceptible to orbital fire. which considering the size of titans is otherwise a real danger

Even for an Emperor titan, you're looking at a moving target that's a couple of hundred square meters, maximum - not an easy thing to hit at orbital distances (and that's before you add the atmosphere either attenuating an energy weapon pulse or windshear throwing a projectile off target) into the equation). Orbital fire is best used either on static emplacements, or at large groups on the basis that you'll hit something and disrupt the rest.

Also, you can't be sure of having complete orbital superiority to be able to drop into a firing position, or having a weapons platform in orbit that is in position to engage it (might be over the wrong part of the planet, or engaged in other fire missions that are deemed more important). Plus, if you've got Titans in the field, the people running them might tell you to get lost, as they want to engage it themselves.

Dazzle would be interesting but ineffective. Camouflage is only effective at disrupting the human eye. It's not going to work against a targeting system.

Well, there's nothing saying that it can't be improved, adding additional chemicals to the paint to absorb ranging radar or lasers, or psyk-out dust to interfere with psychics, or even patterns kind of like the ugly shirt in William Gibson's Zero History (it's a pattern that triggers a security services system on CCTV cameras that basically means the person wearing it isn't recorded), that causes automated systems to misaim, suffer system crashes and so on.

And after all, what's Dathedi if not a serious dazzle camoflage system?

Remember, in 40k, the only race that mainly use electronic systems for targetting are the Tau - Imperials rely on servitors for the actual aiming, Chaos either have servitors or daemons, Eldar probably use psychic senses, while Orks use Gretchin.

Also, wasn't dazzle camo designed to disrupt the targeting of ships, by making it difficult to judge speed and course? I'm not sure that'd work particularly well for a titan, let alone with sophisticated targeting technologies.

And size and position. IIRC, it was mainly for defence against submarines, rather than surface ships or aircraft.

[MajorWesJanson]

True, but unless they're firing on a frigate the odds are seriously stacked against the Titan. Do they even have the ability to elevate their guns close to 90 degrees?

Arm weapons, no, but they carry a defense laser on their back.

[Fen]

How do you camo a vehicle big enough to have a city on its shoulders? Grey shins with the rest of it blue? :\

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WZsq_F25dR...on_a_hill.jpeg
Paint it like that.

Actually,that makes it the perfect camo XD

[Harwammer]

How do you camo a vehicle big enough to have a city on its shoulders? Grey shins with the rest of it blue? :\

Could work well if it stands in exactly the right place...

[Archonsod]

On the whole I'd agree with Lord-Caerolion, Camouflage on a titan would be pointless, given the noise one generates when it moves

It's when it doesn't move that it's useful. Same reason we camouflage modern aircraft and tanks - a titan once on the move doesn't need to hide, but it's a sitting duck when powered down. The camo is used to prevent it being took out via orbital strikes or air strikes before it's deployed.

[Sai-Lauren]

IMO, about the only place a Titan would power down is when it's at a support facility for repair and resupply, which is likely to be well behind friendly lines, and have Void Shields and other defences of it's own.

Even if it's at rest in the field (Codex Titanicus had some fluff about one, with the Princeps' dreams merging with the Titans MIUs memorys), all the systems will still be on hot standby.

Plus see my earlier point about the size of Titans and the problems of orbital fire.

[BooTMGSG]

I think the main use of camo, would be to hide vulnerable points on the Mech, it could also be used to distort the line of the Gun, giving less away on its intended target.

Alternatively you could use reverse camo, draw big bullseyes on the mech, with "hit this to go boom!" writen on it. These parts will be heavily reinforces with no structural value. Any ork gunner would aim strait for this part leaving the more vulnerable parts intact.

[Lupe]

I think the main use of camo, would be to hide vulnerable points on the Mech, it could also be used to distort the line of the Gun, giving less away on its intended target.

Alternatively you could use reverse camo, draw big bullseyes on the mech, with "hit this to go boom!" writen on it. These parts will be heavily reinforces with no structural value. Any ork gunner would aim strait for this part leaving the more vulnerable parts intact.

Good suggestions there, if you ask me.

One other thing to note, though. Camouflage is essentially a functional concept, but even when it doesn't actually provide any concealment, it could still be used for other reasons. So, while it may not actually do anything, but there are reasons to justify painting your models with it.

For instance, a particular Titan Legion could have a history of cooperating with infantry or mechanized regiments from their homeworld, and over time, they would take the habit of painting or draping (at least parts of) their war machines in the same camouflage pattern as the regiments they work with.

Or, the traditions of another Titan Legion could actually require the Titan crews to hunt dangerous predators together on foot. During these rituals, they would wear camouflage suitably tailored around their prey's habitat. The particular pattern of camo would then be integrated on their war machines, as a nod to their traditions.

[Threeshades]

Some camo does make sense even on such a huge machine as a titan. It won't hide them from close by forces, but makes them a lot less easy to spot at longer ranges. And that is at least something. And something is always better than nothing. Especially in war.

Though the Dazzle Camo idea is actually pretty good too.

[KingDeath]

True, but unless they're firing on a frigate the odds are seriously stacked against the Titan. Do they even have the ability to elevate their guns close to 90 degrees?

Frigates are >1km long warships bristling with weapons of almost unimaginable potency, they don't care about 50m high bipedal walkers with comparatively puny guns.

[PondaNagura]

camo you say...

More on topic, camo for titans would be less paint and more auspex scramblers, things to throw off how the manifold read enemy titans or in case of scrapcode fill the spectrum with such noise that crews would have to rely on more human forms of confirming targets. Speaking practically, at long range fire fights (generally how things as large as a titan ought to be fighting at) camo might work if it's an engine fight, legs the color of the ground, torso the color of the sky.

But then the methodology of the Imperium and Admech isn't so much about practicality. You don't hide titans from infantry, they're that size for physiological reasons.

Not sure though how void shields work with titans, are they invisible(the shields I mean) until something impacts them or is there always a color to them or a shimmer that might break up the titan form, like those heat haze on really hot dry days.

As for fleets in orbit, I'd say the situation would depend on whether they are currently engaged with other enemy ships, have air superiority and/or whether they care about collateral damage versus accuracy. The Imperial 'pyrric-victory-is-our-middle-moniker Navy.