Wolves as executioners , what's the problem ?

[trigger]

Hi just wanted to gather people thoughts on this , there is alot of moaning and whining about the space wolves being the Big E's executioners in the 31st millennium.
Wether they only see this them selves or if it indeed it was their roll in the grand scale of things we will never truly know.
I font fully get why people have a problem with it.

It's ok for Dorn to be the pretorian
Horus to be the general
Sanguinius to be salvation
Cruze , terror
Corax , master of stealth
Alpharius , intelegence
Pertarabo, master of seige
Magnus , to be incharge of the beacon of light (possibly the most important job of the lot)

Why is Russ being basically a commissar such a massive thing. I don't see this as a recton to me this is just expansion on a very vaige part of imperial history.


Your thoughts and reasons please ,


Editorial. Please try not to turn into a massive argument.

[ryng_sting]

That may simply be how they rationalise their duties to themselves, not something that's objectively true.

[Scalebug]

Do people really have a problem with it? Can't say I have seen much complaint over it.

If there is something to point out, it would probably be either:

A) The whole "Each Primarch had a purpose" thing wasn't alway there, it is something that had been introduced in the Horus Heresy series. Retcon! Retcon! Waaa!

B) Space Wolves have always been seen as these cool rebels that take no orders and are all anti-authoritan and stuff...


The answers to A) is that, well, if your "now" is set at one point (end of M41), and you are now telling a story of what happened 10.000 years earlier, that is the very definition of a retcon...

and B) is to start with maybe a bit blown out of proportion, and even if you assume it is correct, it could be seen as the very reaction to what they did during the great crusade and heresy... sort of going out of their way to be "humanitarian" as a collective guilt thing, as penance for being murderous lapdogs earlier. Will be interesting to see if an author agrees and explores this.

But in any case, I think you are maybe building up something that doesn't exist there, there isn't that much whining over it. And this often being referred to as "whineseer" that says something

[endless]

I'd say that people's problem with it is a mix of things. I, for example, quite dislike the idea of 'roles' for each primarch/legion, but given how it was written in 2nd ed. that's pretty much unavoidable now.

As far as the Wolves are concerned, I feel it works, more or less. However, better to think of them as the killer dogs of the emperor than his 'executioners'. They are unquestioningly loyal, and will do whatever thay are ordered to do. Angron's legion could never fulfil that role, and, I'd suggest, the Night Lords were likely always seen as 'damaged goods'. The Wolves of Russ answer only to the Emperor, which leads quite nicely into the 'rebellious' nature once the High Lords assume control. Other people disagree with this, hence the 'rage' at Abnett.

[Rogue Star]

What makes them qualified, to be the "executioners", would generally be the average problem. The only answer to it is a vague "They're completely, utterly loyal to the Emperor". As opposed to the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, etc who were not completely loyal to the Emperor?

[trigger]

I don't think it's a question of loyalty

It's described as doing what ever is asked no questions asked. Beyond that Which any other legion would do.
Example at the point if prospero
The sons of Horus can't fathom the idea of marines fighting marines were as the wolves just do it.

After isstvan the raven guard have to
Re train on how to kill marines
(admittedly the traitors have already done this) because it was never thought of ...... But the wolves seem to have already trained to do it.

[endless]

What makes them qualified, to be the "executioners", would generally be the average problem. The only answer to it is a vague "They're completely, utterly loyal to the Emperor". As opposed to the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, etc who were not completely loyal to the Emperor?

Horus was loyal.
Russ doesn't ask questions.

[Lord-Caerolion]

I disagree with the other Primarchs having "roles", other than Dorn being the Emperors Praetorian, Horus being Warmaster, and Magnus supposedly to power the Astronomican (which is an absolute waste of his potential. Create a demi-god of battle, only to have him sit on a chair 24-7...). The others had specialties, yes, but I doubt that when the Emperor found, say, Perturabo he said "Ok, you're my son, and you've got a Legion. You're going to be my Siegemaster, so you'd better read up about siege tactics if you don't know much". Did Russ get used to destroy one or more of the missing Legions? Probably. However, he's not the only one to be considered for the role, given that the Ultramarines and Night Lords destroy the Word Bearers in one potential future shown in Aurelian.

I think what people mostly object to, myself included, is the perception of the Wolves being "the worst of the worst". Partly because we've now got a Legion with a spotless Heresy-era history apparently being worse than the Night Lords and World Eaters, two Legions that were censured numerous times by the Emperor, and partly because said fluff now means we have Wolf fanboys going around thinking the Space Wolves are some sort of super-Legion that can smash any other force into the ground, since they were supposedly custom-designed for tearing the other Legions apart. Combined with the "their Rune Priests are totally not psykers, guys, they use the Spirit of Fenris, honest!" excuse that apparently gets them around the Edict of Nikaea, as well as the "they're actually not undisciplined, they're the most disciplined, ferocious and all-round dangerous Legion of them all", and you've got a Legion of Mary Sues, special in every single way over another Astartes, with no weaknesses or flaws whatsoever.

[endless]

or, if you don't agree with what's been written, gives you a perfectly viable means to emotionally align yourself with the faction you do agree with. No?

(and surely it's not being 'worse'. The wolves didn't hesitate, they weren't distracted, they just did. Orders are orders. Neither of the legions mentioned could do that.) The Wolves would've set themselves against anyone, they didn't 'beat' anyone, unless we believe they killed the 2nd legion or whatever. Horus' wolves destroyed everything, pretty much. Did they win?

[Khorneguy]

The 'Wolves were very pragmatic and would do what they were ordered to, no matter what it involved or who they were fighting. In Prospero Burns they crash a space station into a planet, causing apocalyptical damage because they were ordered to end the war quickly!

When the Emperor ordered them to go bring Magnus to Terra and kill his Legion, then later when Horus modified the orders - apparently on the Emperors instructions - to kill him and the planet, they didn't hesitate or question the orders once. Those are essential qualities for an Executioner.

That coupled with the fact that most of the other Primarchs and Legions were terrified of Russ and the Wolves made them very useful as executioners as well - they were a threat to keep legions in line, especially after it been heavily hinted they were unleashed on the lost legions.

[Bergen Beerbelly]

I disagree with the other Primarchs having "roles", other than Dorn being the Emperors Praetorian, Horus being Warmaster, and Magnus supposedly to power the Astronomican (which is an absolute waste of his potential. Create a demi-god of battle, only to have him sit on a chair 24-7...). The others had specialties, yes, but I doubt that when the Emperor found, say, Perturabo he said "Ok, you're my son, and you've got a Legion. You're going to be my Siegemaster, so you'd better read up about siege tactics if you don't know much". Did Russ get used to destroy one or more of the missing Legions? Probably. However, he's not the only one to be considered for the role, given that the Ultramarines and Night Lords destroy the Word Bearers in one potential future shown in Aurelian.

I think what people mostly object to, myself included, is the perception of the Wolves being "the worst of the worst". Partly because we've now got a Legion with a spotless Heresy-era history apparently being worse than the Night Lords and World Eaters, two Legions that were censured numerous times by the Emperor, and partly because said fluff now means we have Wolf fanboys going around thinking the Space Wolves are some sort of super-Legion that can smash any other force into the ground, since they were supposedly custom-designed for tearing the other Legions apart. Combined with the "their Rune Priests are totally not psykers, guys, they use the Spirit of Fenris, honest!" excuse that apparently gets them around the Edict of Nikaea, as well as the "they're actually not undisciplined, they're the most disciplined, ferocious and all-round dangerous Legion of them all", and you've got a Legion of Mary Sues, special in every single way over another Astartes, with no weaknesses or flaws whatsoever.

On the tabletop they seem to be exactly that. Space wolves have been the most complained about Space Marine legion in the history of 40k because they have been more powerful than any other space marine legion for a very very long time. (yes, including more powerful than any version of the Grey Knights.)

A simple look into the 2nd edition codex will show you what I mean. Back in the day the Space Wolves were extremely powerful compared to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines because they could have a 20 man squad of Terminators that had both Cyclone Missile Launchers and Assult Cannons on every single model.

Then their Special Characters like Ragnar Blackmane on combat drugs would tear the heart out of almost any close combat unit or model you could come up with. They regularly trashed everyone.

There were many more nasty combo's you could pull off with just the space wolves.

By the time 3rd edition rolled around and Rhino Rush was the new thing, Space Wolves were rocking the tournament scene and destroying any army they ran across (well, mine were at least). People were so impressed with how powerful they were that after I won a local rogue trader tournament with them 6 different people bought a brand new space wolf army from the store I played the tournament in.

When 4th rolled around nothing had changed. The Space wolves were still murdering any space marines force they came across and other players that bought the army were doing the same. Other space marine armies have never been a problem for the Space Wolves to take on.

Even in 5th edition and the Grey Knights coming around the wolves were still burning it up at national tournaments and local ones. Sure, the competition had become a little more stiff but for the most part even Grey Knights have been no match for a well put together Space Wolf army.

In my opinion, people having a problem with the Wolves being marine executioners is simply whining from people who don't like the space wolves to begin with.

And since the fluff of them being space marine executioners fits well with their actual tabletop abilities, I'd say their fluff as executioners is about spot on.

[Grit]

Don't some of the marines in the first lot of novels say "so who's the best and they say the space wolves?"
Im fine with them being the exicutiners really,I can't see the problem with it all.

[Bergen Beerbelly]

Yeah, then they go on to say " But that's because they're insane! "...or something along those lines.

[MvS]

However I might feel about the idea of roles for the Primarchs (as opposed to particular aptitudes and preferences), I think the main problem with the idea of Wolves as Executioners is the idea that they are therefore 'better' than other legions. They aren't.

They may be optimised for particular campaigns, although optimisation tends to work against the core strength of the Astartes as being exceptional generalists. Role optimisation isn't the same as generally 'better'.

For me, I like to imagine that if the Wolves were the Emperor's executioners it has little to do with their supposed superior abilities and more to do with their psychology. I imagine that they will do things when ordered by the Emperor that other legions/Primarchs either wouldn't do, or perhaps couldn't do without becoming scarred - so becoming disenchanted or resentful towards the Emperor and what he supposedlhy stands for, or more sadistic or callous as a legion, or uncontrollably battle-mad or even just rebellious. Perhaps the Wolves could do things without it changing how they see themselves, the Emperor, the Imperium and humanity more generally.

This would make them effective and obedient executioners, but it wouldn't make them 'better' per se. Just different, like every legion has its differences.

[Chapters Unwritten]

They also have the advantage of the whole maleficarum thing.

The Ultramarines might take a planet just as fine as the Wolves, better even. But the Wolves are going to devastate and savage anything in their path when loosed completely, and be able to drop the savage revelry of say the World Eaters when needed. The Wolves are a parallel for a trained police bite dog, if you know how that sort of thing is done; it is eager to bite, and gets told to bite so rarely that when it does its enthusiasm is difficult to quell and they can be quite vicious. The Wolves are the same sort of thing; designed to inflict atrocity so horrible as to break the morale of an enemy through horror, the way other space marines would break it through conquest.

This makes them ideal executioners. It also is obvious to me why the Emperor would use them; how quickly would such savage fighters fall to Chaos without the fact that they are culturally disdainful and superstitious? The thing with their psykers is a belief that, it is hinted at, the Wolves know is false; but they forcibly play out that role despite that fact because to know too much is very dangerous, which is something that seems imparted in them in particular to other legions. The Wolves are perfect executioners; able to inflict horrific war atrocities one moment and completely disavow it the next.

In my opinion, people who bitch about Space Wolves, do it because of the game. There is this idea that the Wolf codex is immortal, one fellow in this thread already talked about how they were apparently literally the best army in every edition (that is the most hilarious thing I've ever read, BTW). No one bitches about our fluff; we're just hated on because we're 1 point cheaper than the boys in blue and that makes other gamers rage.

[Sandlemad]

It's two things, both of which have been brought up in this thread but which I'll reiterate:

(i) the lack of doubt, which comes off as supreme arrogance. In plenty of Horus Heresy novels, there's a scene where a protagonist has a split-second of critical doubt/shock at the idea of killing another marine. The Space Wolves don't have that.
It's this supreme self-confidence, combined with an unwillingness to question orders and the belief that they are always in the right (they fully believe they're the best warriors in the galaxy too but so do all the rest) that makes them suited to the first explosion of inter-astartes warfare.
In Prospero Burns, a warrior named Orcir

opens fire with a heavy bolter at a daemon which he thinks is Horus. He doesn't stop and consider the correctness of this act or if/why Horus, the most beloved figure in the entire Imperium, is now an enemy; he simply lets loose at something he sees as a threat without a moment's hesitation.

I'd imagine this 'edge' would actually become less of an edge as the Heresy wound on and the legions became used to killing each other. This may well account for the fact that this 'Emperor's Executioners' facet of their character is mostly absent from their 40K portrayal.
Naturally, when it's coming from the mouths of the Wolves themselves, it paints them, quite rightly, as a bunch of abrasive ********s. They are genuinely irritating for everyone else to deal with and I think this carries over to the readers' perception of them.

(ii) their treatment of Chaos. Their belief in maleficarium makes them uniquely qualified for recognising and coping with Chaos. See Horus Rising where Loken has trouble believing his eyes. See Know No Fear where it takes the Ultramarines quite a while to get to grips with the Word Bearers' summoned daemons. These would be tough battles for Space Wolves but ones where they would not be immediately wrong-footed as other legions would be.
Now this belief in maleficarium manifests itself not just in knowing what to do and how to act but also in more tangible features.

- Their wolf-tail/tooth fetishes and the prevalence of runes on armour and weapons throughout the whole legion provide some minor protection against the warp.

- The packs of wolves they keep (regardless of origin) have a knack for smelling out psykers and daemonic presences, as we see in A Thousand Sons.

- In Index Astartes article for the 13th Company, I seem to recall some speculation about how the curse of the wulfen actually acts as a preventative for some warp-effects, basically kicking in when faced with corruption.

- Keeping Rune Priests in the legion post-Nikaea is hypocritical as all hell and completely transparently so to anyone except the Space Wolves themselves (they're always right, they don't doubt their own correctness). Where Rune Priests are different to Librarians is that they don't originate in the initiative of Magnus, Sanguinius and Khan, which then spread to the other legions. Certainly they're psykers and warp users but they work in different traditions and date to the founding of the legion.
This says to me that the use of Rune Priests was considered something worth keeping by the Emperor, something important to their 'role'. I could be wrong but it makes the hypocrisy understandable, if no less blatant.

The whole idea works, in my opinion, and actually sheds more light on the Night Lords' and World Eaters' character.

EDIT: Whoa, I didn't know ********s was censored. What I'm getting at is that they're not Mary Sue marines in that they're transparently a bunch of arrogant jerks whose 'role' is more specialised than most people give credit for and is one that is not likely to outlast the Heresy.

[endless]

more words doesn't mean better.

[Lord_Crull]

Why is Russ being basically a commissar such a massive thing. I don't see this as a recton to me this is just expansion on a very vaige part of imperial history.

And whatr exactly is the typical relationship between a Commissar and a Guardsmen? Is it that of equals?

I mean, with Horus being superior and the Warmaster it's easier to accept since Horus was always that way. But with Russ is comes off as demeaning to other Legions as now Russ is the ''Anti-Astartes guy.'' The Wolves are just as ferocious and ruthless as the World Eaters and also super-disciplined and totally loyal at the same time. It's like they're a better version of the World Eaters or Night Lords. They now keep other Astartes in line and are made to take out other Astartes.

Second, Prospero Burns/Dan Abnett doesn't say that the Space Wolves are the the executioners because they are so super loyal. They are said to be the executioners because they are the worst of the worst, completely terrifying, and you wouldn't wish them on your worst enemy. And that is just flat out not true. But apparently no one had told Dan Abnett about Legions such as the World Eaters or the Night Lords, Legions that are famously said to have caused troubling Imperial worlds to instantly cease all illegal activities if their mere presence was mentioned in the sector, Legions that had entire worlds surrender so as to not face their wrath. The Space Wolves, in stark contrast, while allways being described as ferrocious in combat, had also allways been described as somewhat of people's heroes, sticking up for the little man, their current Chapter Master being revered by Guardsmen all over the Imperium.

[endless]

To the OP, cos of people like that.

[Lord_Crull]

To the OP, cos of people like that.

Is there any points that I made that are false?