He did raise a good point. Several in fact.Originally Posted by endless
He did raise a good point. Several in fact.
Again it's mind set , not the best because of twit abilerties but the best because of there attitude , I no book that I can think of does it say because there better fighters or tacticians.
To give an example
Prospero burns
" whilst marines from other legions would have taken the blow on the shoulder guard and rolled with it , bear threw his guard high and took the guardian spear in his side"
Yes, see 'Butcher's Nails'.
{so very slow, sorry}
Last edited by endless; 04-08-2012 at 20:51.
The reason people take issue with the executioner role is because they get it into their heads that this automatically means that they're the best, most powerful legion, which isn't the intended point. Fighting a siege? Ring up Dorn or Perturabo. Want to scare someone sh*tless? Kurze or Angron might be your best bet. Not quite sure what to expect? Guilliman's a great generalist. Something strange in your neighbourhood? Magnus might know something about it.
Want to kill some Marines? Want someone who won't flinch at the thought of shooting his friends and brothers in the face? You get Russ and his wolves. Not because he excels over the others in their respective fields of warfare, but because even the likes of Argel Tal, a possessed butcher, feels the need to apologise before killing other Marines.
True, "Executioners" only means the Wolves will fight other Marines without blinking, not that they're superior in fighting ability.
The problem comes that Space Wolves are usually described with a level of awesome in the novels that almost makes you think they were Ultramarines. These two things combined make it annoying, because then "Executioner" does quickly become "better Marines".
To be honest I think most chapters are described in "their" books as more awesome than they might be(I know they do not exit in real life=) ). It does not bother me at all and you shouldnīt be bothered by it either. I play Space Wolves and people can sometimes be upset by Space Wolves to a degree I canīt understand. To be bothered be a fictional thing because you like another chapter or xenos so it starts to be a pissing contest. I donīt for example fancy Word Bearers one bit but if they are hyped in "their" book I couldnīt care less even if it is ridiculus.
Peoples problem for the most part I think is they either hate to face SW on the gaming table and canīt stand any SW hype at all or they have already an set idea how SW should be and they are correct and the authors are wrong. May it be because they fancy another chapter that they think should have the "title" that has been given to the SW or something along those lines. Point is that we are countless players with set ideas of how the world in 40K is and how the races and factions work. And to no suprise we donīt have they same view and to some extent so do not the authors. So when a book comes out the view on the universe will probably not be the same as you might have pictured it and some goes along with it and some takes it to another level and goes all internet about it.
Last edited by Mag-El; 05-08-2012 at 01:21.
I agree with the idea that people see the "Wolves as Executioners" as saying they are better then everyone else. I also believe that the "Threat" of having the the Wolves sent after you was not because they were better then anyone else. Just that it was known at the top levels that if that order came, it would be followed without hesitation nor mercy.
This is a misunderstanding of us fan boys. We actually believe that the Space Wolves are the "Worse of the worse". Their truely only redeeming quality being their unquestionable loyalty. Without the idea of the Space Wolves' value as an utterly loyal "Executioner" they would have faced the same if not worse cencuring then the Night Lords and World Eaters.
As it is, there are Imperial Army Commanders that would rather face losing then accept help from the Space Wolves. That fact in and of itself shows how "Bad" the Space Wolves were cira 31k.
The "Epicness" of the SWs is not helped by how they are writen about. A good example is in the new rule book:
The Space Wolves are normally portrayed as being space marines+1. But I like to look at it as we are not truely being told the whole story. Their pre-heresy record is so clean beacuse we don't get to see the black marks. Maybe because it's purposely kept hidden by the powers that be or even more sinister. There being a fear of reporting it. The commander in Prospero Burns has what appears to be a real fear of "Getting the Space Wolves' attention". Maybe it's not unprecedented. We know in 40k that the Space Wolves have no fear of attacking other loyal forces that they see as a threat to themselves of those they protect.
I think the best portryals of the Space Wolves are in the books that they are not the "Good Guys". Examples being A Thousand Sons and The Emperor's Gift.
Ahem. And here I was thinking that there was at least one HUGE flaw the the wolves had, made clear in almost every story about them ever told. Numbers!
I was going to do some edits but it's easier to just post links to old threads instead.
Most Logical choice for an Executioner Legion.
Executioner Chapters...
the problem comes from the usual place these things do; people projecting their own fears and prejudices onto the text, rather than reading what's on the page or taking that page in its proper contextual environment.
as others have already pointed out, being an "executioner" does not instantly mean you are a superior warrior. as far as i know, the term simply means someone who carries out a death sentence. being the "baddest of bad asses" is not a necessity to the role.
and since when does the "best man for the job" always get it due simply to ability? iron warriors and imperial fists were allegedly on par in the fortress building/siege industry, but only one was chosen to fortify terra. we can all speculate as to why, but in the end, the job isn't for two. i imagine being executioner is similar. there might have been a handful of legions under consideration, but only one was chosen. there might have been those that suggested other warmasters, but only one was chosen. i don't understand the issues people raise, especially as they don't seem to be supported by the text...
I just read "Know No Fear" and realized something.
Aendid Thiel is marked for censure for running theoreticals on fighting other Astartes. Astartes vs Asartes was a treasonous, very serious notion. This is a moment that's brought up during the HH series. It's not just the betrayal and treachery itself, but the idea of Astartes fighting each other is utterly alien and unheard of to the Loyalists (and to many traitors).
So how do the Wolves gets used prior to Prospero (as its implied) without the other, earlier Primarchs and marines hearing about it. Corax, Lorar and Alpharius may have been found too late in the Crusade to be aware but they have Terran marines...
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Because the barest mention of what happened results in immediate summary execution, from what I gather. Not only would it have been on the very strictest need-to-know basis but a lot of mind-wipe was probably involved too. This is a secret so dark and so guarded that even the traitor Primarchs weren't judged as being quite as significant, as they're still recorded whilst the other two were not.So how do the Wolves gets used prior to Prospero (as its implied) without the other, earlier Primarchs and marines hearing about it. Corax, Lorar and Alpharius may have been found too late in the Crusade to be aware but they have Terran marines...
Did I say two? Two of what? You heard nothing.
...ok, great.
@Lord_Crull: The only place in Prospero Burns where the Space Wolves are described as the 'worst of the worst' is by that one Imperial Army officer, not by the Wolves themselves. He's one man and moreover he's comparing them to the Blood Angels, White Scars and Death Guard.
The Wolves themselves, Guillman in Know No Fear ("Our father should have fed you to Russ") and the stuff in A Thousand Sons stress it's the loyalty and not questioning orders that makes them who they are.
You're absolutely right that it stands at odds with their traditional 40K depiction as one of the more 'humanistic' chapters, like the Salamanders. I think that Chris Wright in Battle of the Fang tries to address this, showing how they've changed over 10,000 years but part of it could be that if your role is to fight other marines then by the 41st millenium, congratulations, that's what everyone 's doing anyway, your ideology is likely to shift.
In one of the video interviews Abnett explains it is because they are the worst of the worst that they are the executioners.
@Lord_Crull: The only place in Prospero Burns where the Space Wolves are described as the 'worst of the worst' is by that one Imperial Army officer, not by the Wolves themselves. He's one man and moreover he's comparing them to the Blood Angels, White Scars and Death Guard.
The Wolves themselves, Guillman in Know No Fear ("Our father should have fed you to Russ") and the stuff in A Thousand Sons stress it's the loyalty and not questioning orders that makes them who they are.
"Space Marines are inherently tough, but Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal. It begs the question: Why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be to take down another Legion!"
At no point at all does Abnett or the characters in Prospero Burns factor in the Wolves loyalty or restraint. He does point out that they are dangerous compared to even normal Space Marines and that they are so untamed and savage.
Last edited by Lord_Crull; 05-08-2012 at 11:34.
Not entirely true. He first explains that he has seen Space Marines in action before. Then describes the Blood Angels, White Scars and Death Guard in good terms. He then however states that there are stories of "Monster" Space Marines. That "The Emperor Who Guides Us All has gone to far once or twice, and made things he should not have made". It's in comparison to these stories that he says the Space Wolves are the worst. (Prospero Burns pages 192-198 for the full exchange)
@Lord_Crull: The only place in Prospero Burns where the Space Wolves are described as the 'worst of the worst' is by that one Imperial Army officer, not by the Wolves themselves. He's one man and moreover he's comparing them to the Blood Angels, White Scars and Death Guard.
It is true that he is the only to actually call the Space Wolves the "Worst of the worst" but it is strongly applied in other sources. The video trailer for A thousand Sons and Prospero Burns is worth checking out, even if it's not really fluff. It does give you an idea of what the authors were going for.
The problem was that how the book described them, it make them out to be harder, more vicious, more 'go to all ends', more 'marine then marines' without even attempting to compare them to the World Eaters or Night Lords.
There was no other problem, but a lack of rationalization against the behavior traits often associated with other legions, and it came off as insanely like bad fan fiction.
Noise Marines
I agree that the book tells us rather then shows us. It's my biggest complaint about it. The problem however is how do you write a book showing how much more "Harder, more vicious, more 'go to all ends', more 'marine then marines'" they are, without deminishing the World Eaters and Night Lords? Or just making the Space Wolves even more mary sue.
I do not see any inconsistency in the Space Wolves - or indeed, any other person or organisation - being utterly ruthless and savage to their enemies, while being utterly loyal and generous to their friends. It's a larger than life, black and white, extreme way to live your life, but then Space Wolves are all of those things, so it fits to me. The issue is more that, in what books I've read, both sides are rarely portrayed at once, leading to a sort of cognitive dissonance for some. But then I haven't read all of them, so may be missing something.
Get off of my lawn!
There is a few problems with the overall "Emperors Executioners" theory. Yes, there is the fact that Wolves were ruthless bastards who didn't blink an eye when they had to kill other Marines, but the problem is that they weren't the only ones. Thousand Sons themselves shed no tear for Space Wolves and both Luna Wolves and Angrons lot were also definitely not shying away from marine-to-marine battles. The Wolves did take Prospero on alone which could bet seen as proof, but then again we don't know how much of that was Emperors planning and how much was Russ just being the sociopath he is and going off on a little expedition of his own. What we do know is that latter is possible since it was the hypocrite lot of Space Wolves and their "no-our-runepriests-are-not-psykers" who brough on the Nikea trial in the first place.
Then there is the really big problem: The fact that Space Wolves was one of the smallest legions in the first place. Yes, there was enough of them to handle the job if their "role" would be to put down single marines and small groups of dissenters but even against the very smallest Legion (Thousand Sons) they had barely enough menpower to do the job. Had the "Emperors Executioners" been sent against any of the bigger legions they would have been executed in turn without a pause.
Last nail to the coffin of the "Emperors Executioners" theory was Isstvan. Here Emperor actually has heard of Luna Wolves, Death Guard, Emperors Children and World eaters being turned against him and who does he sent to dispence the justice? Space Wolves? Nope. There is not a word spoken of them, instead he sends in Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion.
Last edited by Polaria; 05-08-2012 at 18:26.
Order. Unity. Obedience.
They are those things, they do "go to all ends." Those are bad things for them to be, though.
People like Raven Guard and Alpha Legion because they perform stealth operations and can spread their marines out more without having big stand up battles bashing armies against each other. They are more efficient. "Executing" enemies by "go[ing] to all ends" is gross overkill. When in their IA the crusade-era Alpha Legion did make an effort to destroy an enemy's entire army, they were criticized for wasting time and bolt shells.
As it happens, the Night Lords are another stealthy legion. They beat their enemies without having to confront and destroy many stand-up armies. As a side effect, they commit atrocities and butcher people out of vindictiveness. Their win condition is not taking all of their opponents pieces and setting the chess board on fire, that is not their objective.
The Space Wolves do burn the chessboard, and that is bad and inefficient so there is only one set of executioners.
You made "points" in the first place. You are "people like that." You argued a case when some people prefer a conversation with a human to reading a long-winded but not exhaustive or conclusive essay.Is there any points that I made that are false?
Like, I work in a campaign office. People think that means I want to talk to them about Fox News and normative arguments on the Levant or birth control. No, I manage an organization and get more votes than the other guy. I want them to tell me what they, specifically, are going to do right now to affect a particular project like my gas budget or pending legislation.
I do not need to hear your thoughts on the way things ought to be. I can't do anything with them and they are probably boring.
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