Wolves as executioners , what's the problem ?

[Scribe of Khorne]

They are those things, they do "go to all ends." Those are bad things for them to be, though.

People like Raven Guard and Alpha Legion because they perform stealth operations and can spread their marines out more without having big stand up battles bashing armies against each other. They are more efficient. "Executing" enemies by "go[ing] to all ends" is gross overkill. When in their IA the crusade-era Alpha Legion did make an effort to destroy an enemy's entire army, they were criticized for wasting time and bolt shells.

As it happens, the Night Lords are another stealthy legion. They beat their enemies without having to confront and destroy many stand-up armies. As a side effect, they commit atrocities and butcher people out of vindictiveness. Their win condition is not taking all of their opponents pieces and setting the chess board on fire, that is not their objective.

The Space Wolves do burn the chessboard, and that is bad and inefficient so there is only one set of executioners.
.

I dont take issue with the Wolves thinking of themselves as such. I take issue with a character who could act as an objective source, who has knowledge of other marines even, building them up in such a manner as well. And a well traveled, supposedly knowledgeable main character also not having any objections to how the wolves talk themselves up or are pushed by the typical IG grunts in the book.

The whole purpose was to show as subjectively as possible that the wolves are the end all be all, and it flat out diminished the preexisting themes of other legions in the process. ABD made a nice save, but if HE had written Prospero Burns, it would never have needed to be saved.

[kilkrazy]

with out the sisters of silence. the wolves would have lost on prospero.
or turned into wulfen. if the turn into wolf when in close proximity to the warp is to be believed.
maybe the emp did use them to destroy 2 other legions. which would make their numbers smaller.
i just think that Russ was the aspect of the emp that eliminated the competitors.

[Scammel]

with out the sisters of silence. the wolves would have lost on prospero.

Even with them, if Magnus had bothered to actually do anything it might well have been a total ROFLstomp for the Sons - it was very clear that without Russ doing his thing or a certain god dicking them over that the Sons were utterly superior.

[Stonerhino]

Yes, because having Magnus run out and get his back broken at the begining of the battle would have let the Thousand Sons win???

It was the Thousand Sons not Magnus who had failed. If they would have followed their Primarch's lead and not taken up arms against the Space Wolves. Then they could have changed the outcome of the HH. Even post cencure. Magnus, knew this and that is why he impeded the defences of Prospero. Chaos wanted both legions to destroy each other.

Remeber that for all the "Sons were utterly superior" nonsence the Space Wolves emerged as still a threat to the Traitors. And even as it was; many of the highest ranking casters had to push themselves over the edge just for things be as bad as it was for the Wolves. The Thousand Sons had no hope of winning. All that mattered was how much damage they did on the way down.

An unconditional surrender + Magnus being taken to Terra. Might have completely changed how the siege of Terra turned out.

[kilkrazy]

Even with them,

sisters shut down psykers. magnus would have been just as useless as he was portrayed. wouldnt have mattered if Russ was doing his thing.
although being sold out by your father and knowing what he had planned for you (golden throne, until its not needed anymore)
Sanguinius. i think he knew

[Scammel]

Yes, because having Magnus run out and get his back broken at the begining of the battle would have let the Thousand Sons win???

I'll try not to stray too far into silly predictions, but Russ's win was the height of flukeyness, to suggest the outcome would have been the same is pretty much the same as arguing Isildur would beat Sauron one-on-one every time. The duel is a relatively short one, but considering what Magnus pulls off (killing off several Astartes and Custodes, both of Russ's dogs and sticking Russ in/through the chest) it would never be a foergone conclusion.

If they would have followed their Primarch's lead and not taken up arms against the Space Wolves.

I'm thinking it was a bit too late to make up and say sorry after the Wolves have conducted an orbital bombardment and launched the assault boats. I'm also thinking the tragedy was slightly Russ's fault for not trying to contact Magnus through conventional means instead of just hoping that 'that's the way psykers work, isn't it'?

"Sons were utterly superior" nonsence

I don't recall any Wolves swatting Custode jetbikes out of the air with a sweep of their hands or destroying Landraiders with their minds.

sisters shut down psykers. magnus would have been just as useless as he was portrayed.

T'kar did just fine at hunting down and killing several. I suppose Magnus might have been inconvenienced for a moment before the Sisters' minds blew out - after all, we've seen pariahs can be worn down over time by children.

[TheDungen]

There is a dinstinction. The night lord smay be scarier but they are far to slow to be the crushing hand of the emperor. The want to have a long time to slowly break their enemy through harassign him from the shadows and psyching him iwth his worst fears. The world eaters may be more ruthless but they cant be controlled once unleashed. Russ is a wolfhound, he will bite what the empreror tells him to bite when he's told to bite, he will die trying to bite and he will never hesitate. It makes him useful for this sort of thing.
Take Prospero the emperors original order was to capture Magnus and kill the planet. Angron thus wasn't your choice, he don't leave anyone alive. When the order got changed it was to late to change the legion chosen to carry it out.

The change in the SW from the m30 to m40 is because the emperor is no longer around to tell them what is right and wrong. The wolf hound has to learn to take care of itself. And it does so by creating a warriors code of honour that it abides to no mater what.

[Bergen Beerbelly]

They also have the advantage of the whole maleficarum thing.

The Ultramarines might take a planet just as fine as the Wolves, better even. But the Wolves are going to devastate and savage anything in their path when loosed completely, and be able to drop the savage revelry of say the World Eaters when needed. The Wolves are a parallel for a trained police bite dog, if you know how that sort of thing is done; it is eager to bite, and gets told to bite so rarely that when it does its enthusiasm is difficult to quell and they can be quite vicious. The Wolves are the same sort of thing; designed to inflict atrocity so horrible as to break the morale of an enemy through horror, the way other space marines would break it through conquest.

This makes them ideal executioners. It also is obvious to me why the Emperor would use them; how quickly would such savage fighters fall to Chaos without the fact that they are culturally disdainful and superstitious? The thing with their psykers is a belief that, it is hinted at, the Wolves know is false; but they forcibly play out that role despite that fact because to know too much is very dangerous, which is something that seems imparted in them in particular to other legions. The Wolves are perfect executioners; able to inflict horrific war atrocities one moment and completely disavow it the next.

In my opinion, people who bitch about Space Wolves, do it because of the game. There is this idea that the Wolf codex is immortal, one fellow in this thread already talked about how they were apparently literally the best army in every edition (that is the most hilarious thing I've ever read, BTW). No one bitches about our fluff; we're just hated on because we're 1 point cheaper than the boys in blue and that makes other gamers rage.

No, I didn't say they were or are "literally the best army in every addition".

I said they are and always have been the best SPACE MARINE army in every addition. Imperial Guard in 5th edition and Eldar in 2nd edition were better armies than the Space Wolves.

But as far as Space Marines go the Space Wolf codex has always been better than any of them. Those are the facts, not my opinion.

[Stonerhino]

I'll try not to stray too far into silly predictions, but Russ's win was the height of flukeyness, to suggest the outcome would have been the same is pretty much the same as arguing Isildur would beat Sauron one-on-one every time. The duel is a relatively short one, but considering what Magnus pulls off (killing off several Astartes and Custodes, both of Russ's dogs and sticking Russ in/through the chest) it would never be a foergone conclusion.

So you not only want to believe that the outcome would be different. But you also believe that the outcome would be different before Magnus was infused with the powers of Chaos.

I'm thinking it was a bit too late to make up and say sorry after the Wolves have conducted an orbital bombardment and launched the assault boats. I'm also thinking the tragedy was slightly Russ's fault for not trying to contact Magnus through conventional means instead of just hoping that 'that's the way psykers work, isn't it'?

If the Wolves would have landed and been meet with surrender instead of weapons fire it would have been different. However you are not wrong for letting Russ share the blame.

I don't recall any Wolves swatting Custode jetbikes out of the air with a sweep of their hands or destroying Landraiders with their minds.

And how many powerfull psykers killed themselves because they where using to much power??? Also not every Thousand Son was proforming those actions.

Ultimatelr, for all their wisdom, the Thousand Sons could not stand against the fury of the entire Space Wolves Legion in the field of war. At the forefront of the Space Wolves' battlelines, led by Jorin Bloodfang, was the Thirteenth Great Company. They were those who adopted the form of the Wulfen, their bestial souls transforming them into nightmarish half-wolves in the heat of battle. The sheer scale of the carnage the Thirteenth Company caused opened a massive hole in the lines of the Thousand Sons, and soon the verdant pastures of Prspero ran red with streams of blood. Magnus' brave warriors were slowly but surely culled, their numbers melting under the intense fire of the Space Wolves' assult.

No were in the fluff is it suggested that without the Sisters of Silence the Space Wolves would have lost. Even when Magnus goes out to face Russ, he did expect to live.

He [Ahriman] wanted Magnus to return and retrieve his grimoire, but understood with sudden clarity that was never going to happen.

Magnus had no expectations of surviving his duel with Leman Russ.

The Defence of Prospero was a desperate attempt at survival. The Art of War will tell you that an army with no means of escape will fight harder then they would otherwise. It's that desperation that we see at the end not true ability.

[Scammel]

But you also believe that the outcome would be different before Magnus was infused with the powers of Chaos.

It depends on whether or not you can actually find me a quote which states this was the case. Magnus didn't really do anything beyond what he's normally capable of in that duel.

If the Wolves would have landed and been meet with surrender instead of weapons fire it would have been different.

It absolutely wouldn't, as has been discussed in this very thread. The Emperor had ordered the Wolves to destroy the Sons - that was that.

And how many powerfull psykers killed themselves because they where using to much power???

Several. Doesn't really change the fact that they were single-handedly destroying entire squads.

Also not every Thousand Son was proforming those actions.

Again, very true. But none of the Wolves were doing that sort of thing.

No were in the fluff is it suggested that without the Sisters of Silence the Space Wolves would have lost.

The Index Astartes articles should be treated with caution, especially considering that the articles themselves repeatedly state that the accounts given are untrustworthy and contradictory.

It's that desperation that we see at the end not true ability.

I didn't really pick up on many 'desperate' Sons. Actually, most of them seemed really happy that they were getting the opportunity to beat the snot out of the Wolves.

[TomsDad]

I think there is a danger in over stating some of our evidence here, the Imperial guard officer who claims that the rout are the 'worst of the worst'. Are we really taking his throwaway comment as a true and clear analysis of all 18 legions and their comparative abilities to be bad ass?

I'm happy for them to be the executioners as being an executioner in no way requires you to be the best fighter, leaving aside the TT I don't see the SW as being Mary sues in any particular way, especially when you take into account that each book about each legion/chapter appears in spend time describing how awesome their particular subjects are.

Of course the Space wolves beat the Thousand sons in Prospero burns, it's a Space wolf book. Same reason why Batman can beat Superman in a Batman comic, but Superman will beat Batman in a superman comic. IIRC The SW's are depicted as the usual tatted savages in Thousand Sons.

Or to put it another way when your reaching the higher levels of 'awesome', it can become a bit difficult to distinguish between precise gradations, but it become less necessary to do so.

[Lord-Caerolion]

I think there is a danger in over stating some of our evidence here, the Imperial guard officer who claims that the rout are the 'worst of the worst'. Are we really taking his throwaway comment as a true and clear analysis of all 18 legions and their comparative abilities to be bad ass?

I'm happy for them to be the executioners as being an executioner in no way requires you to be the best fighter, leaving aside the TT I don't see the SW as being Mary sues in any particular way, especially when you take into account that each book about each legion/chapter appears in spend time describing how awesome their particular subjects are.

Of course the Space wolves beat the Thousand sons in Prospero burns, it's a Space wolf book. Same reason why Batman can beat Superman in a Batman comic, but Superman will beat Batman in a superman comic. IIRC The SW's are depicted as the usual tatted savages in Thousand Sons.

Or to put it another way when your reaching the higher levels of 'awesome', it can become a bit difficult to distinguish between precise gradations, but it become less necessary to do so.

We're more commenting about Abnetts personal comments stating that the Wolves are the worst. I've come to accept the Wolves seeing themselves as Executioners, however I just think that the delivery of the book left a lot to be desired. I understand that a Space Wolves book needs to portray the Wolves as being awesome, but the Wolves were made awesome in entirely different ways than before, and that made their previous weaknesses into strengths, while making no mention of the Legions who really do epitomise those characteristics. It's the equivalent of having a Death Guard novel that reveals that the Death Guard were in fact the absolute masters of mobile warfare, with their bike-mounted troops being the best of any Legion, and that they used infantry so much just to throw the enemy off and strengthen the impact of the cavalry charge, while making no mention of the White Scars.

When you tone down the awesomeness from Prospero Burns, you've got a Legion that nears the ferocity of the Night Lords and World Eaters, but the key difference is that the Wolves are controllable. Their Primarch isn't unstable, they won't overdo it, they won't hesitate. Above all, they're loyal. What I would prefer to see however is more focus on the hypocrisy of the Wolves, given the continuing existance of their Rune Priests. They've lost their lack of control as a weakness, and I'm sorry, but "these guys are just so awesome that there's much less of them" doesn't count as a proper flaw. It works for table-top balance, but not for truly interesting characters.

[Scammel]

What I would prefer to see however is more focus on the hypocrisy of the Wolves

This definitely comes across a lot stronger in ATS and also the start of PB - it could be just me, but the Fenrisians' fearful attack on something they didn't understand struck me as being an obvious comparison witht the razing of Prospero.

[daveNYC]

This definitely comes across a lot stronger in ATS and also the start of PB - it could be just me, but the Fenrisians' fearful attack on something they didn't understand struck me as being an obvious comparison witht the razing of Prospero.

The initial action on Fenris in Prospero Burns really should have been used as the basis for the Space Wolves character flaw. You've got a legion that is so territorial (and/or paranoid) that they shoot down an Imperial lander that AFAIK was showing a proper IFF (and it's not like Fenris has some history of being attacked by xenos, which might justify having a hair trigger on the orbital defenses), and you've got a local population that are such a bunch of primitive screwheads that they take the crashing shuttle as a sign of daemonic something-or-other and all the local villages roll out to slaughter the poor unfortunates who just happen to live closest to the crash site. Overly territorial and suspicious of outsiders combined with primitive beliefs and a strong core of superstition regarding, oh, everything, could work nicely to balance their ferocious nature and superduper-loyalty. Instead the writers have made the Wolves superstitious enough so that their charms and trinkets actually work, yet their entire feral barbarian theme is just an act to lull everyone into not taking them seriously. Then there's the fact that they are somehow more loyal than anyone, willing to do things that no other legion will do, and even hints that they were involved in the elimination of the missing two legions,never mind that the Wolves are such a small legion that using them for anti-Astarte work makes little to no sense.

As far as the attack on Prospero goes, it's not unlikely that if Magnus had rolled out of his room earlier that things could have gone differently. The Wolves had nearly every advantage in that battle. They had complete suprise, absolute orbital and air (even though flier rules hadn't been introduced) superiority in the battlespace, numerical superiority (although not by that much), the support of the Custodes, the target wasn't even a fortified city, and they had the Sisters of Silence, specialized troops that existed specifically to suppress the Sons' primary weapon. On paper there should have been no contest, instead the battle was a complete meatgrinder. It's not crazy to think that Magnus could have made a difference if he had been involved from the start. If nothing else, I could easily see the Sons being able to turn the Wolves' flank if Magnus had launched an attack with the support of that Warlord titan that the Sons had rigged up.

Honestly, the best argument against the Wolves as superduper executioner better than everyone else anti-Astartes is the battle of Prospero itself. If the Wolves were really as awesome as some of the writers and most of their fans seem to think, then how does one explain how, even with all the advantages listed above, the Wolves weren't able to walk all over the Sons?

[gwarsh41]

Honestly, the best argument against the Wolves as superduper executioner better than everyone else anti-Astartes is the battle of Prospero itself. If the Wolves were really as awesome as some of the writers and most of their fans seem to think, then how does one explain how, even with all the advantages listed above, the Wolves weren't able to walk all over the Sons?

Executioners are not the strongest, not the fastest, and not really the best at doing anything but what others do not want to do. Wolves are made out to be crazy savages by reputation in most all books. This is probably because when another chapter is fighting alongside the wolves, they see the wolves do things they would not do. It varies from chapter to chapter, but think of how appalled the thousand sons were when the wolves burned libraries. Sons of Horus even state that they don't enjoy the Space Wolves company. Never is it explicitly stated that the Space Wolves are the best, it is just explained that they are a chapter that others would rather not fight against, or with, savages, and deadly.

As it has been mentioned previously in this thread, the wolves do not have the hesitation to kill. Think of how many times the good guy has died in the fluff because they hesitated killing the bad guy. Something along the lines of, "You were my battle brother, I cannot finished you off." Right before they get stabbed in the chest or something. An executioner does not think like that before flipping the switch or swinging the axe. They don't ask questions, they just keep chopping off heads until told to stop.

So when the Big E wants something done with no questions asked, and no other chapters popping in to say, "Oh hey there, we were passing through and saw you were taking a planet, want some help?" he calls the wolves. Thanks to reputation, none of the other chapters have any interest in being friends with the Space Wolves.

So Wolves don't really have friends, don't ask questions, and have some of the better infantry (if comparing codex, remove anything related to the HH, blood angels dont have red thirst and chaos marines did not have chaos power and all whatnots and hoo haw) Grey Hunters at the time, were pretty beastly, other armies have since grown to have equally beastly troops. Wolves also have some unusually good scouts and Long Fangs are awesome.
It is a combination of these things that makes the wolves good for the job of executioner. Not that they are the best of the best of the best. They simply have the traits for the job. Remember how pissed everyone was that they did not get chosen to be warmaster? That is how Warseer acts about being the executioner.

[TomsDad]

We're more commenting about Abnetts personal comments stating that the Wolves are the worst. I've come to accept the Wolves seeing themselves as Executioners, however I just think that the delivery of the book left a lot to be desired. I understand that a Space Wolves book needs to portray the Wolves as being awesome, but the Wolves were made awesome in entirely different ways than before, and that made their previous weaknesses into strengths, while making no mention of the Legions who really do epitomise those characteristics. It's the equivalent of having a Death Guard novel that reveals that the Death Guard were in fact the absolute masters of mobile warfare, with their bike-mounted troops being the best of any Legion, and that they used infantry so much just to throw the enemy off and strengthen the impact of the cavalry charge, while making no mention of the White Scars.

When you tone down the awesomeness from Prospero Burns, you've got a Legion that nears the ferocity of the Night Lords and World Eaters, but the key difference is that the Wolves are controllable. Their Primarch isn't unstable, they won't overdo it, they won't hesitate. Above all, they're loyal. What I would prefer to see however is more focus on the hypocrisy of the Wolves, given the continuing existance of their Rune Priests. They've lost their lack of control as a weakness, and I'm sorry, but "these guys are just so awesome that there's much less of them" doesn't count as a proper flaw. It works for table-top balance, but not for truly interesting characters.

Fair enough, TBH I'm not seeing the space wolves as lacking any weakness anymore than a lot of the others though. I guess I just don't see why they are being held up as a prime example of a mary sue legion, compared to the other legions (or at least any of the others that have had as much text lavished on them or who aren't famously flawed in some way).

[daveNYC]

Executioners are not the strongest, not the fastest, and not really the best at doing anything but what others do not want to do. Wolves are made out to be crazy savages by reputation in most all books. This is probably because when another chapter is fighting alongside the wolves, they see the wolves do things they would not do. It varies from chapter to chapter, but think of how appalled the thousand sons were when the wolves burned libraries. Sons of Horus even state that they don't enjoy the Space Wolves company. Never is it explicitly stated that the Space Wolves are the best, it is just explained that they are a chapter that others would rather not fight against, or with, savages, and deadly.

As it has been mentioned previously in this thread, the wolves do not have the hesitation to kill. Think of how many times the good guy has died in the fluff because they hesitated killing the bad guy. Something along the lines of, "You were my battle brother, I cannot finished you off." Right before they get stabbed in the chest or something. An executioner does not think like that before flipping the switch or swinging the axe. They don't ask questions, they just keep chopping off heads until told to stop.

So when the Big E wants something done with no questions asked, and no other chapters popping in to say, "Oh hey there, we were passing through and saw you were taking a planet, want some help?" he calls the wolves. Thanks to reputation, none of the other chapters have any interest in being friends with the Space Wolves.

So Wolves don't really have friends, don't ask questions, and have some of the better infantry (if comparing codex, remove anything related to the HH, blood angels dont have red thirst and chaos marines did not have chaos power and all whatnots and hoo haw) Grey Hunters at the time, were pretty beastly, other armies have since grown to have equally beastly troops. Wolves also have some unusually good scouts and Long Fangs are awesome.
It is a combination of these things that makes the wolves good for the job of executioner. Not that they are the best of the best of the best. They simply have the traits for the job. Remember how pissed everyone was that they did not get chosen to be warmaster? That is how Warseer acts about being the executioner.

I think that's because being called The Executioners really only has meaning when talking about taking action against Imperial forces, and specifically when taking action against other Astartes. Every legion probably comitted xenocide hundreds of times over the course of the Great Crusade, and it's not like any of the other legions ever showed much reluctance when undertaking actions against human held worlds that were reluctant to join the Imperium. So I don't really see what the Wolves, as executioners, would bring into those situations that other legions wouldn't. Maybe they're less concerned about civilian casualties, damage to infrastructure, or distruction of knowledge centers, but that's not really worth a special label or role in the scheme of things. You could argue that they're more disciplined than the other brutal legions, the World Eaters or Night Lords, but then you're starting to fall back on the Mary Sue elements of their description. That they're increadibly savage and scary, but at the same time the scary and savage elements are just a front and they're actually really really well disciplined and it's all a front. Not to mention that you've got the oxymoronic situation where their primitive belief in their talismans manages to make them work, while at the same time saying that all their primitive behavior is just an act to lull everyone else into not taking them seriously, or something. There's never a good rational for why the Wolves fake being savages even to other Astartes.

So if you buy into the idea that the role of executioner really doesn't have much weight outside of anti-Imperial, and specifically anti-Astartes actions (YMMV), you're left wondering why the Wolves would get that label.
Is it because they're extra-special brutal? Not really, the Night Lords use intestines for decorative accents and the World Eaters are a poster child for 'when all you have is a chain axe, everything looks like a neck'.
Is it because they're willing to follow orders, regardless of what the orders are? Well the Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit as an object lesson to the Word Bearers, and it's not like any of the primarchs seemed too hesitant about doing whatever the Emperor asked, at least until things went truely pear shaped. Maybe Russ has an edge there, but then you'd expect there to be some downside in the fluff, like an order from the Emperor gets mistranslated into saying jump off a cliff and they lose half a great company before things get sorted out. Plus that obedience doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in the fluff. The Wolves are the rebels, the wild and crazy space vikings. They're the guys who practice their own screwy religion and then shoot down Eclesiarchy ships, they're the ones that tell the Inquisition and the Grey Knights to get bent at Armageddon and manage to walk away without even a mindwipe. You're back in Mary Sue land where they're super obedient to the Emperor, because he's awesome, but the second that he's out of the picture, they're able to ignore the High Lords of Terra and do things that make them the super awesome protectors of the little guys in the Imperium.

So long story short, if you take the role of Executioner to only have meaning in regard to action against other Astartes, and you take into account that there isn't that much in the traits of the Wolves or their Primarch that lend themselves to anti-Astartes activity, relative to other legions, then the only thing left that could explain them being given such a role is that they're simply better than the other legions. Not better at some role or skill or tactic, not that they're better at sieges, or better psykers, or even especially sneaky. Simply that they're better at being Astartes then other Astartes.

[wanderingblade]

Is it because they're willing to follow orders, regardless of what the orders are? Well the Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit as an object lesson to the Word Bearers, and it's not like any of the primarchs seemed too hesitant about doing whatever the Emperor asked, at least until things went truely pear shaped. Maybe Russ has an edge there, but then you'd expect there to be some downside in the fluff, like an order from the Emperor gets mistranslated into saying jump off a cliff and they lose half a great company before things get sorted out. Plus that obedience doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in the fluff. The Wolves are the rebels, the wild and crazy space vikings. They're the guys who practice their own screwy religion and then shoot down Eclesiarchy ships, they're the ones that tell the Inquisition and the Grey Knights to get bent at Armageddon and manage to walk away without even a mindwipe. You're back in Mary Sue land where they're super obedient to the Emperor, because he's awesome, but the second that he's out of the picture, they're able to ignore the High Lords of Terra and do things that make them the super awesome protectors of the little guys in the Imperium.

Would have personally said that the notion that the Space Wolves are loyal to the Emperor, and only the Emperor, and do not regard the High Lords/Inquisition/other bodies as speaking in his name and therefore feel free to ignore them whenever they feel like it, is one that is quite well established, and one held by most Marine chapters, albeit to not quite the same extent.

[Stonerhino]

[Stuff]I didn't really pick up on many 'desperate' Sons. Actually, most of them seemed really happy that they were getting the opportunity to beat the snot out of the Wolves.

The very defence of Prospero was a desperate act.

Either we defeat the Space Wolves or Prospero will be the Thousand Son's tomb. Either way we lose.

Then read page 515-522 and see the fate of the Thousand Son's Fellowship leaders who accomplished the tasks you are giving credit all Thousand Sons. And it should be know that they all killed themselves. Some even acepting their fate because they saw how they had given up control. Also it's not just the Inddex Astartes that shows us that it was the Space Wolves not the Sisters of Silence that was winning the battle.

The perimeter of the Thousand Sons was holding, but that it would soon break was beyond question. No force in the galaxy could resist so furious an attack, so lethal a drive and a foe so utterly without mercy: No force but the Thousand Sons with the power of the great ocean at their command.

He then as a desperate act to enact vengance for this fallen brothers. He chanels to much power and kills himself. Granted he like the other "Captain/Librarians" do a lot of damage before they die. But they give up their control to do it.

Desperation sinks in, the warp lies to them to get them to over step their abilities. They do their thing; feeling "Top of the world" realise what they did and die. And this plays out over and over. It is in no way a measure of the Thousand Sons abilities. If anything it shows their weakness and why the Emperor, Russ and others wanted them stopped.

Again, very true. But none of the Wolves were doing that sort of thing.

"That sort of thing" was why the Wolves were there killing there dudes. "That sort of thing" shows how close to the "Line" that the Thousand Sons had approached and vindicated their destruction. Not something to be proud of.

It depends on whether or not you can actually find me a quote which states this was the case. Magnus didn't really do anything beyond what he's normally capable of in that duel.

So you want us to believe that Magnus went out there and threw a life or death fight???

[Scammel]

Either we defeat the Space Wolves or Prospero will be the Thousand Son's tomb. Either way we lose.

Strikes me as a statement of fact rather than someone's fearful last ravings.

Desperation sinks in, the warp lies to them to get them to over step their abilities.

They over-stepped their abilities because they were bloody loving it.

"That sort of thing" was why the Wolves were there killing there dudes. "That sort of thing" shows how close to the "Line" that the Thousand Sons had approached and vindicated their destruction. Not something to be proud of.

So, that's a concession that the Sons were indeed superior in combat? I never asserted that their powers gave them some sort of moral high ground. Hey, at least they were honest about it as opposed to another legion I could name.

So you want us to believe that Magnus went out there and threw a life or death fight???

No, but that's not proof he was being powered by Chaos at this point.