Magnus wasn't powered by the 4 at that point. There was absolutely no indication that he was.
Magnus wasn't powered by the 4 at that point. There was absolutely no indication that he was.
"WE ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."
beer and axes
I have no problem with the Wolves being used as 'executioners'. I don't believe they were created for that purpose, just that they were best suited. What I think most people have a problem with is this;
Which has popped up on the interwebs and in gaming groups lately as a result, when, as has already been said, it seems more a case of "Ask Russ, he's a bit of a ***** that won't ask questions".Originally Posted by Random_SW_Fanboy
As for this "Thousand Sons are superior to other SM" argument thats cropped up, if you look at how they are portrayed in the HH series, in all honesty, they are.... By a long long margin. Look at Mohtep from BftA, or , well, pretty much and TS from any of the other books. Me and my mates have discussed it before, that had the Emperor not thrown all of his toys out of the pram with Magnus, the siege of Terra could have gone very very differently, with an army of TS assploding the traitor legions with mind bullets.
In fairness, Magnus had consorted with Daemons and had completely defied Nikea (not to mention the incident on Nikea itself in PB) - my heart always goes out to the Sons themselves but with someone so powerful and so clearly at risk to Chaos (if he hadn't completely fallen already), the Emp couldn't really take chances.had the Emperor not thrown all of his toys out of the pram with Magnus
That's telekinesis, Kyle!
I'm inclined to agree. The Thousand Sons offered a skillset unmatched by any in the other Legions.
In "Deliverance Lost" when Corax arrives and is discussing the Loyal Primarch with Dorn and Malcador, he seems to dismiss the threat to Terra almost out of hand if Magnus and the Thousand Sons are manning the walls and quickly swings to despondent when he learns the Space Wolves have been sent to destroy them. Corax's assumptions and reactions support both the idea that the Wolves were very, very good at killing Astartes and the idea that losing the Thousand Sons in any capacity is a grievous blow to the Loyalists, even more than the loss or turning of almost any other Legion.
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I am one of those who do believe that the Primarchs were assentially created or molded in pairs, to have specific aptitudes. Whether the Emperor encoded them that way to have redundancy, or Chaos molded their champions to be the match of their loyalist counterparts, it is anyone's guess.
Russ and Magnus are the two that don't pair up well. I believe the reason is that they match up to the "missing" legions. We have hints that something happened to one Primarch, and his legion was folded into the Ultramarines. Perhaps it was a Psyker Primarch that became irrovocably tainted or corrupt by his abilities. Another legion was hinted at being straight out destroyed, and that the Space Wolves were the ones who did it. What could cause the destruction of an entire legion? How about wide spread mutation? Perhaps, they were a legion far more bestial than the wolves themselves, and had to be put down.
If the Space wolves did infact slay another legion, then that explains why their numbers are so small. They just haven't fully recovered from a brutal fight with a fellow legion. Why were the wolves chosen? Other's have mentioned their loyalty, and their ability to turn off their aggression when the time comes. I would also submit that there may have been another factor at work... Empathy. If the legion was suffering from wide spread mutation, and turning into bestial abominations, it could very well be that Russ would have volunteered for the duty. Seeing a fellow Primarch/legion suffering through far worse than they were, the wolves could have seen it as their duty to put an end to their brothers suffering. Afterwards, the stigma of slaying another legion would stay with them, and it would also weigh heavily upon the legion as shown by their willingness to "play the bad guys". Again, pure speculation here, but it seems close to the mark.
That the Space Wolves were concidered an attack dog for the Emperor, was evident. At the council of Nikea, Russ'es presence was a palpable threat directed at Magnus. It told him how deathly serious the Emperor was about the edict. After Magnus'es indescresion, the Emperor had no choice but to make good on his threat.
As for the Space Wolves being better... I don't see it in the fluff (the game is another debate). I see them portrayed as being an adaptable legion that plays into their reputation out of some sense of duty and loyalty. They have this bad rap, so they simply full fill the expectations as they believe it is expected and required of them. If it's what is expected of them, then so be it. If their reputaion becomes one of fear and dread, all better to serve the emperor. They don't seem to get any enjoyment from it.
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The incident at Nikea mentioned in PB was not Magnus' doing though. That was part of the long game that team Chaos was playing to make Russ assume the worst about Magnus' actions and intents. It's also a tad silly, considering that it took place within throwing distance of the Emperor and he didn't even seem to notice.
What hey were doing is akin to being a suicide bomber. You can do a lot of damage but you can only do it once. In the end, it's not a measure of skill. Just a desperate act to bring as many of the enemy down with you as you can.
He was infused with power and you want to believe that it just went away so he could fight Russ???
This really is getting tiresome. Even disregarding the Landraider stuff, the Sons pull of multiple feats throughout the book that are beyond the scope of normal Astartes, especially the Wolves. Just see what all the other posters have to say.What hey were doing is akin to being a suicide bomber. You can do a lot of damage but you can only do it once. In the end, it's not a measure of skill. Just a desperate act to bring as many of the enemy down with you as you can.
No - he wasn't infused with it. A: The IA articles are, as I've mentioned, very unreliable and B: This one is demonstrably false. Magnus had no psychic wards and was certainly not mutating in his fight with Russ.He was infused with power and you want to believe that it just went away so he could fight Russ???
Last edited by Scammel; 08-08-2012 at 08:48.
The Index Astartes pieces were excellent when written and still have some gems in them. However, the 'Visions' books and Heresy novel series have outright changed many details that appear in those old articles, so a bit of context and caution is required when quoting from them I think.
Complete Rules for the Chaos Legions make a return at last!
Updated and revised for the 6th Edition.
I always think the emperor is a bit of dick on this one (and to lesser extent the TS).
So you (the emperor) haver created 20 of the best warriors/agents you can, each one designed to operate to a large degree autonomously and fully aware they have your trust because they are your special agents over everyone else. Each one is designed to fill a certain role, one role being the chap who will be interacting with the warp and requires him to be interested in learning about the warp, magic and exploration.
Now knowing what this chap is inclined to be doing (because you practically encoded it on his genes) do you decide to tell him about the perils of the warp and that the strange entities he might meet might have an pre-existing interest in him, you, and all the things you're both trying to create. Or do you let him go off blind and then shout at him when he does what he's designed to do.
Even better, having later created the legions again each one designed to be fit for a certain purpose, you then pull the rug from under one of them "all you others can do what your best at, but you Thousand Sons sorry not you. Sorry can't tell you why, you warrior scientists who achieve victory by explaining, mastering and controlling the unknowable, erm just trust me ok".
One second of thought combined with a knowledge of human nature that stretches 10,000's of years might just have given you a clue how that would end up.
I also particularly like, "magnus how dare you mess up my special plans by trying to contact me in the only way I've made it possible to do so, in the middle of an exceptionally delicate part of those plan's preparations. You know the special plans and delicate preparations I didn't tell anyone about"
Then getting all 'son I am disappoint', and not even listening to what might have been the reason for the extreme psychic phone call. Especially when he's warning you about the very thing you were worried about happening.
Last edited by TomsDad; 08-08-2012 at 12:21.
To be fare the Emperor was a dick in a lot of ways
"Horus my son who has my passion to lead and to strive for more and who will never be content , I make you warmaster"
You have covered Magnus
" Angron you are my son you mist come with me to conquer the ubiverse "
" but I need to do this first , I'm so angry ...grrrrrrrr"
" do as your told child "
" Cruz my son you have to model imperial world here , every one is good and follows the way we like things "
Fast forward 200 years
" Cruz you have gone to far this is not what I wanted "
Cruz (WTF!)
And so on an so forth
An my best
Dorn
" Father Horus has rebelled and taken other brothers to his cause , they mean to over throw you "
" what ? "
" yes , we must go and meet them on the field of battle and stop there momentum and thus madness now !"
" Hold on son , let your old man think for a minuet .........
Dorn your prety good at building Walls and stuff ....yes? "
" why yes father , what are you thinking"
" Dorn my son ...........I have a cunning plan"
Last edited by trigger; 08-08-2012 at 13:50.
TBF the whole sorry business does rather depend on some of the main characters acting like overgrown children, but then there's a lot of greek tragedy and old testament in there so it kind of makes sense!
Faith is purest when it is unquestioning.
We are the Necrontyr. We are legion. We claim dominion of this world. Surrender and die.
Really looking through this thread, it doesn't seem like people have a problem with "Wolves as Executioners" so much as the way they're described in PB (basically being marines +1). I think Abnett went a little to far on that front, but thats fairly common in BL books, and considering its from their point of view (and their remembrancer's (sp?) its actually fairly acceptable.
As far as their hypocrisy is concerned, I don't think the wolves see it that way they didn't have libbies in a traditional sense and didn't consider what they did sorcery. So of course its gonna be more pronounced in a book from a different legions POV, as another legion/s assesses them.
On Night Lords or World Eaters as executioners. Night lords ruled through fear, they didn't just destroy everthing. If a nightlord doesn't want you to enter a building they make an example of someone thats so over the top nobody wants to go there, whereas wolves would just burn it to the ground. World Eaters are bit murkier because unlike the other legions they've been modified with psycho surgery, so who knows what their orginal purpose was it could be breeding ponies for all we know.
The problem with the Wolves as executioners is that the role is tied into being marines +1. Either they're the most loyalest marines ever, or they have skills that allow them to take down Astartes without facing ruinous losses. On top of that, there doesn't seem to be any downside to what they do. If they have wiped out a Legion in the past, you'd think there'd be a bit more animosity between them and their brothers. If they're so obedient, how come they also get to be the wild rebels in both 30k and 40k (yes, the Emperor vs the High Lords, but still, there should be something).
Most other assumed Legion roles or traits either have an in fluff drawback (like the flesh change), or one that you could handwave into existance (the Ultramarines being by the book to the point where they become predictable). The Wolves just don't have any of that.
The rune priests using the power of Fenris is just painfully stupid. I mean if they were at least ON Fenris, then I could see them buying it, but when you're thousands of light years away on Planet Whatever it's really just willfull blindness. Plus, the Emperor mentioned how dangerous it was to use the warp, you'd think he'd really speak up about the dangers of using the warp when you don't even think you're using the warp.
They're the emperor's dogs in human form with power armor, a well trained dog is pretty much the loyalest thing ever. As for the downside? How about being played by Horus and inadvertantly leading to the outcome of the Heresy, that's a pretty big failing.
Not if those legions were widely recognised as having it coming. What ever they did must have been pretty horrible for them to be stricken from the record when even the traitor legions weren't.If they have wiped out a Legion in the past, you'd think there'd be a bit more animosity between them and their brothers.
Not everyone knows how to train or handle dogs. Some people (using the term generously) like catsIf they're so obedient, how come they also get to be the wild rebels in both 30k and 40k (yes, the Emperor vs the High Lords, but still, there should be something).
They're dogs in power armour. Pretty easy to see how that works out, both good and bad, especially when their owner has been taking a millenia long nap.Most other assumed Legion roles or traits either have an in fluff drawback (like the flesh change), or one that you could handwave into existance (the Ultramarines being by the book to the point where they become predictable). The Wolves just don't have any of that.
As WFB taught us, when it comes to manipulating the warp blind faith is not only capable of great feats but is also generally safer and more stable than knowledge and awareness.The rune priests using the power of Fenris is just painfully stupid. I mean if they were at least ON Fenris, then I could see them buying it, but when you're thousands of light years away on Planet Whatever it's really just willfull blindness. Plus, the Emperor mentioned how dangerous it was to use the warp, you'd think he'd really speak up about the dangers of using the warp when you don't even think you're using the warp.
Index Astartes, Collected Visions (page 240) and A Thousands Sons (page 541-543) all give the same account but from different perspectives. Only Index Astates however says what Magnus was doing right before he exited the Pyramid of Photep. And they all describe him as a "Being of Fire" among other details.
What's getting tiresome is your inability to diffrentiate between extraordinary feats and colossal mistakes. It is true that the Thousand Sons do some amazing things. The problem with this is that they are showing the signs of their weaknesses not their strengths. For example the battle against the Eldar Titans. For starters:
Shortly there after the Thousand Son do some impressive psychic battling.
Uthizzar, was wise enough not to give into the "Urge to wield the force filling the valley" and saw what the others were doing as extremely dangerous. Even though Ahriman basically says "It's fine" it is not long after that that the Flesh Change begins to start happening again. The burning of Prospero can be traced directly back to the Thousand Sons "Crossing the line" during this battle.
You see only the spectacular magics, I see the Thousand Son's discipline failing. I see the "Spectacular magics" too but its a sad thing. Because I know "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" and the Thousand Sons are walking down that road.
Ahriman picks up on what makes the Space Wolves so deadly.
Which mirrors well with what magnus says in Battle of the Fang.Ahriman took a moment to study the Wolf Lord. Skarssen's aura was a keen blade, a focussed edge of single-minded determination. Here was a warrior who never let up, never stopped to question, and would never, ever, falter in his duty.
And you are let to provide a single piece of fluff giving the Sisters of Silence credit for the Thousand Sons defeat.
Which is my point. The Sons can perform feats in combat that the Wolves are not capable of, ergo they are better in combat. I've not said they have the moral high ground, I've not denied that some of them slipped up (though Tzeentch played a role in that) and nor have I said that the Wolves aren't vicious bastards - but they are not vicious bastards able to throw around other men like ragdolls with their mind!It is true that the Thousand Sons do some amazing things.
Besides, it's hardly the Sons alone with genetic problems is it? Evidently they weren't the only ones with control issues.
ATS does not and besides - this is a guy with red skin and hair which glows when he's using psychic energies and can manipulate fire. A 'Being of Fire' could potentially describe him most of the time.And they all describe him as a "Being of Fire" among other details.
I don't believe I did give them credit, especially considering how I pointed out they were pretty useless against T'kar, but I'll retract it if I did so.And you are let to provide a single piece of fluff giving the Sisters of Silence credit for the Thousand Sons defeat.
Really, though, if the Wolves were equal fighters don't you think they'd have done a much better job? I mean, the Wolves are a larger legion to start with, they have Russ, they have the Emperor's own bodyguards and Valdor with them, the Sisters of Silence and an actual fleet. On the other side, we have Magnus who's decided not to actually take part apart from effectively taking out his own fleet, clouding the early warning system and thus taking out the orbital defences and killing off a bunch of his own Terminators. There's the Spireguard, which were always going to be a bit useless considering the nature of the fight. And we have the Thousand Sons, the smallest legion, who get dicked over by Tzeentch later in the fight. How was this not a walk-over for such an incredibly elite force with actual preparation and the advantage of numbers?
Last edited by Scammel; 09-08-2012 at 07:12.
Its worth noting that while Space Wolves were the only Astartes present, they were certainly not alone: There were plenty of Custodes and Silent Sisters present. And as for "who is better?" I would say neither legion, they were just different:
The raging combat swirled like a seething tide, with neither force quite able to gain the uppder hand. The Space Wolves fought with furious abandon, utterly directed and focussed, but without the clarity of vision to appreciate the whole picture. The Thousand Sons fought with clinical detachment, every warrior having achieved the lower Enumerations yo better focus their skills. As Astartes, they were trained to excel in the brutality of close combat, but Magnus had taught them there was always another, cleverer way to win.
'Understand the foe,' Magnus had said, 'and you will know how to beat him.'
It was a lesson Space Wolves and Custodes had taken to heart, for how else would they have thought to bring the null-maidens of the silent sisterhood with them?
(From Thousand Sons)
Its also worth pointing that even with Russ fighting with his Legion the Space Wolves never just "walked over" Thousand Sons. They had help and in the end they had to use all the dirty tricks in the book, up to and including releasing the Wolfen and using psychic powers themselves.
Order. Unity. Obedience.
Which I think is backed up by the fact that no legion ever broke silence and therefore their implied consent on the matter. Although the meta plot nature of the subject may well be influencing this united wall of silence of course, the traitor legions certainly wouldn't continue to keep quiet about it out of just loyalty to the emperor.
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